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Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

thehill.com

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Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#51

Post by subscribed »

jjmarr wrote: post #23

If you're a man that didn't sign up between 18 and 25, you permanently lose student aid in most states along with federal employment eligibility. Some even ban getting a driver's license. In practice, it's young men of lower socioeconomic statuses that are failing to register. This is due to lack of knowledge or presence in the system more than conscientious objection. e.g. Prison or being homeless. Many choose to ge…

Thanks, I don't like there and this is very important for context.

Thank you!

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#52

Post by bryanlarsen »

kstrauser wrote: post #35
linkregister wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This selective service policy change is unrelated to any prospective or ongoing military operations. Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Officers have accepted comparably low pay for the history of the U.S. armed services. Cited reasons include prestige, networking opportunities, and as a distant third, sense of duty to nation.

> Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Citation heavily needed. When I was a junior non-com, my civilian colleagues made way more than I did, even including the (quite nice) military benefits, even when ignoring the fact that 80 hour workweeks are commonplace on deployment.

Did you calculate pension benefits? That military pension should be worth millions since you can start earning it young in life and it's based on your highest pay during the career.

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#53

Post by kstrauser »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #52
kstrauser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Citation heavily needed. When I was a junior non-com, my civilian colleagues made way more than I did, even including the (quite nice) military benefits, even when ignoring the fact that 80 hour workweeks are commonplace on deployment.

Did you calculate pension benefits? That military pension should be worth millions since you can start earning it young in life and it's based on your highest pay during the career.

It ought to be worth millions, given that you work your tail off, for significant less pay, and get that pay instead of the civilian 401(k) you could have.

Let's look at an E-9 Master Chief, the highest enlisted rank. Their basic pay is $9267 a month[0]. If they're in for 30 years, and get the High-36 retirement plan[1], then they get 75% of that — $6950/mo — afterward. That's certainly not chump change.

However, the kind of person with the drive, leadership skills, political savvy, and work ethic to become a Master Chief would rise to least a director or VP, or a senior VP, at a civilian company. So yes, their military retirement's quite good, but at a substantial opportunity cost.

To be super clear, my main argument is that the military should earn more, especially for the sheer amount of work they put in. They earn it.

[0] https://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/charts

[1] https://militarypay.defense.gov/Pay/Retirement/

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#55

Post by linkregister »

kstrauser wrote: post #35
linkregister wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This selective service policy change is unrelated to any prospective or ongoing military operations. Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Officers have accepted comparably low pay for the history of the U.S. armed services. Cited reasons include prestige, networking opportunities, and as a distant third, sense of duty to nation.

> Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Citation heavily needed. When I was a junior non-com, my civilian colleagues made way more than I did, even including the (quite nice) military benefits, even when ignoring the fact that 80 hour workweeks are commonplace on deployment.

The DoD publishes an annual schedule comparing civilian wages in most MOS's and rates. I couldn't find it within 10 seconds of searching, but I found this old study [1] posted on a mil website, stating that average compensation was significantly higher for enlisted personnel.

For your individual experience, consider the years of experience and education of your contractor / DA civilian counterparts. Furthermore, consider your CZTE and danger pay. It's possible that your individual experience might have you earning less in pro-rated annual income during deployments. Does that also apply when you were in garrison? Did it account for your free occupational training (that you were paid to attend)? Tricare? Tuition assistance?

The fact you're even posting on the orange site to begin with implies you received some expensive training that would ordinarily require a university degree.

1. https://militarypay.defense.gov/Portals/3/Documents/Reports/...

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#56

Post by linkregister »

kstrauser wrote: post #53
bryanlarsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you calculate pension benefits? That military pension should be worth millions since you can start earning it young in life and it's based on your highest pay during the career.

It ought to be worth millions, given that you work your tail off, for significant less pay, and get that pay instead of the civilian 401(k) you could have. Let's look at an E-9 Master Chief, the highest enlisted rank. Their basic pay is $9267 a month[0]. If they're in for 30 years, and get the High-36 retirement plan[1], then they get 75% of that — $6950/mo — afterward. That's certainly not chump change. However, the…

This is an absurd comparison. You neglect to include BAH or other tax-free allowances; your figure significantly deflates total compensation. Command Sergeants Major comparing themselves to VP of Human Resources is a meme in veteran circles; as in, those who do it fail miserably to get hired when applying to these positions. They are not comparable.

I don't deny that servicemembers earn their pay. There is a premium to accepting the upheaval of a cross-country move every 3 years. But to assert that the average E-9 is equivalent to a director or VP position is incorrect. People of that rank are told in TAP to accept positions of perceived lower authority. Those who are successful in going from E-8 or E-9 to Director or VP roles are extraordinarily rare.

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#57

Post by linkregister »

ehasbrouck wrote: post #31
jjmarr wrote: post #23

If you're a man that didn't sign up between 18 and 25, you permanently lose student aid in most states along with federal employment eligibility. Some even ban getting a driver's license. In practice, it's young men of lower socioeconomic statuses that are failing to register. This is due to lack of knowledge or presence in the system more than conscientious objection. e.g. Prison or being homeless. Many choose to ge…

The burden of proof is on the government to prove that any violation of the Military Selective service Act was "knowing and willful". That's almost impossible without a public confession, signature on a registered letter, or testimony of an FBI agent who served an order or notice to register or report for induction. According to the Federal Office of Personnel Management, only 1% of cases of nonregistrants adjudicate…

Empirically, administrative hurdles are successful at reducing benefits claims rates. Florida found that understaffing their unemployment offices led to steep drops in unemployment benefits claims. The conclusion is only the most desperate people will tenaciously pursue benefits. Most will self-fund.

The merits of such a system do exist. However, the public will withdraw political support for benefits if the number of covered individuals is very low.

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#58

Post by linkregister »

fiddeert wrote: post #21
Aboutplants wrote: post #5

I still don’t understand why, if they are having trouble with recruitment, they simply won’t raise the pay to entice more recruits? We have a seemingly unlimited budget for bombs but god forbid you pay for smart, qualified people willing to actually do the work. It is as simple as that and not anymore complicated

It's not a problem that money can solve. If you think it is, it's over. It wasn't that long ago that men would sign up for almost-certain death in defence of their families, their people, their nation. Recognise that young men have nothing worth fighting for now. There is a much larger issue that can't be solved by throwing a few more shekels at disillusioned mercenaries.

For most of history, soldiers were drawn primarily from the farmers (99% of people). They were employed for fixed time periods; if they didn't go to war then they would be subject to corvee and be put to work on national infrastructure. Military service was involuntary, but also closely tied to status. Additionally, enslaving defeated combatants was lucrative for winning armies. Belief in the campaign was rarely an important factor.

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#59

Post by Markoff »

fiddeert wrote: post #21
Aboutplants wrote: post #5

I still don’t understand why, if they are having trouble with recruitment, they simply won’t raise the pay to entice more recruits? We have a seemingly unlimited budget for bombs but god forbid you pay for smart, qualified people willing to actually do the work. It is as simple as that and not anymore complicated

It's not a problem that money can solve. If you think it is, it's over. It wasn't that long ago that men would sign up for almost-certain death in defence of their families, their people, their nation. Recognise that young men have nothing worth fighting for now. There is a much larger issue that can't be solved by throwing a few more shekels at disillusioned mercenaries.

> It wasn't that long ago that men would sign up for almost-certain death in defence of their families, their people, their nation.

I would say WW2 was pretty long time ago, none of the latter US wars was about thing you mention, everyone serving in following wars were not soldiers but mercenaries.

Btw. why you need army to defend your own family? Also your family is more likely to be hurt by your fellow citizen than some foreign soldier.

Re: Automatic registration for US Military draft to begin in December

#60

Post by esseph »

linkregister wrote: post #55
kstrauser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Enlisted personnel typically out-earn civilian counterparts when tax-free allowances are accounted. Citation heavily needed. When I was a junior non-com, my civilian colleagues made way more than I did, even including the (quite nice) military benefits, even when ignoring the fact that 80 hour workweeks are commonplace on deployment.

The DoD publishes an annual schedule comparing civilian wages in most MOS's and rates. I couldn't find it within 10 seconds of searching, but I found this old study [1] posted on a mil website, stating that average compensation was significantly higher for enlisted personnel. For your individual experience, consider the years of experience and education of your contractor / DA civilian counterparts. Furthermore, cons…

> The fact you're even posting on the orange site to begin with implies you received some expensive training that would ordinarily require a university degree.

That is quite a leap.

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