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Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#51
post #3
post #2

A very similar development is going on in neighboring Finland. There are schools that use almost exclusively paper books (instead of digital ones) again. The overall consensus among parents is that books are way better than screens for kids, all the way up to high school. Hand-writing and free drawing with pen and paper provide many advantages to fixed screens. You cannot open a new tab to Youtube in a book. The sign…

As much as I would have disagreed as a kid, I very much agree now. Laptops were used more for flash games and reddit than learning in the classroom in my experience. And likely the act of reading physical books and handwriting is better for learning.

That anecdote sounds like a problem with discipline and ethics, not with technology.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#52
It’s sad to see HN take this at face value and parrot the “screens bad” view without understanding it.

I dug deep into this a while ago, starting with the “how legit is the science” question because I wondered if the studies had looked at any tradeoffs (e.g. did laptop use improve programming skills in ways paper books do not?)

It’s a rabbit hole. I encourage folks to read up and form more nuanced opinions.

This being HN I need to assure you that my learned skepticism regarding harms from screens in schools does NOT mean I want to ban all books in schools, strap toddlers into VR for their entire childhood, or put Peter Thiel in charge of all curriculums. Intuitively I think paper allows greater focus. But the data is not nearly as clear as politics-driven advocates claim.

Some info:

- The move back to books was a centerpiece of election policy by the center-right government, and is at least as much about conservatism as it is about science.

- Actual studies in this area are mixed.

- A lot is made of PISA scores, which dropped from the 2010’s to early 2020’a (when this policy became popular). But: the scores started dropping before 1:1 computers were rolled out, and also correlated with teacher shortages and education policy changes, and of course COVID. I could not find any studies that controlled for these other factors, and the naive “test scores can be entirely attributed to computers” view really doesn’t hold.

- There was a major change in pedagogy in Swedish schools that predates introduction of computers and seems like a better explanation for lower scores [1]

- One meta analysis does show a very small but stat sig decrease in reading comprehension for non-fiction when read from screens rather than books [2]

- Another meta analysis found zero difference between screens and books for reading comprehension [3]

- A third meta analysis found a tiny and decreasing negative impact from screen use, and some evidence that the effect is transitional as teachers and students adapt [4]

- The vast majority of studies in this area use no children at all, only adults. There are good ethical reasons for this, but it is a mistake to assume that a 25 year old’s reading comprehension from screens in 1995 is predictive of an 8 year old’s in 2026. [5]

- One of the few studies that did look specifically at children found that paper outperformed screens… but only in traditional schools. Homeschooling and lab testing did not show any difference between mediums [6]

1. https://www.edchoice.org/is-swedish-school-choice-disastrous...

2. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/screen-reading-worse-for-c...

3. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15213269.2022.2...

4. https://oej.scholasticahq.com/article/125437-turning-the-pag...

5. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03601...

6. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.3102/0034654321998074

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#53

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Fully agree. I went to school in Germany and many of our textbooks were free there. Sometimes you would get a textbook that is already >= 10 years and out of shape but who cares? Especially the basic knowledge does not change often. Buying all these textbooks new every year feels like a scam to me as they are then only used for one year by the pupil.

Btw when you damaged a book beyond repair, you needed to pay the full price. Only the exercise books needed to be bought freshly as they were "used up" fully after the year. Still, they were often seen as optional.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#54

Having observed a fair amount of computer based primary school, it seems to me anyway that the biggest problem is that kids just can't focus properly that way. Even if the machine is locked down to prevent open internet access, it's just too easy for them to become distracted by the medium itself. Books, pencils and paper may not be flashy, but isn't that actually desirable, in this context?

I was on the tail end of no-screen schools, and even then I could find anything to distract myself with, daydreaming if necessary. But mostly doodling the gutters.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#55
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would have disagreed as a kid, I very much agree now. Laptops were used more for flash games and reddit than learning in the classroom in my experience. And likely the act of reading physical books and handwriting is better for learning.

That anecdote sounds like a problem with discipline and ethics, not with technology.

You can put a candy bowl in front of kids and tell them not to touch it. Or you can just not put it there. Ultimately kids will be less distracted when you remove the source of distractions. Phone bans in schools are showing this already.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. I am in the US and there seems to be a FOMO plague infecting our school system when it comes to technology. In practice it seems more destructive to the child.

I don't think they need to learn 'AI workflows' (whatever that means). But I think it makes sense to use the LLM's as a resource. I've used them when studying new languages (human languages not programming languages) and ML algorithms and they've been really useful. Learning to check the citations it gives you is a useful skill too. I wish many adults were more sceptical about the things they are told.

It's true that you can use LLMs as a learning resource and to unblock you. But students just aren't. They are using them as a way to avoid thinking, avoid research, and just spit out an answer they can paste in to their homework.

Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That anecdote sounds like a problem with discipline and ethics, not with technology.

You can put a candy bowl in front of kids and tell them not to touch it. Or you can just not put it there. Ultimately kids will be less distracted when you remove the source of distractions. Phone bans in schools are showing this already.

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Re: Sweden goes back to basics, swapping screens for books in the classroom

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But equally it's really helpful to be able to ask ChatGPT or whatever for a different explanation when you get stuck - but that is probably better done at home when studying the homework. It stops you getting frustrated and helps keep you making progress and in the 'flow state'. Yeah sure, then get a (sometimes) wrong answer with high confidence and believe it?

It's quite rare that it gives a wrong answer nowadays. Even more so if you ask it to use the internet etc. But yeah, it's not infallible and sometimes even when it gives you a source it will incorrectly summarise it, but you can double check the information in the source itself. It just makes it a lot easier to do quickly rather than having to go and find the right Wikipedia article or dig through lots of documentati…

Only if you are asking surface level questions. There are also certain topics that seem to be worse than others. For asking about how to do things in software guis modern LLMs seem to have a high rate of making up features or paths to reach them. For asking advice in games I've seen an extremely high rate of hallucinations. Asking why something is broken in my codebase has about a 95% hallucination rate.

If you are just asking basic science questions or phone reviews then its pretty reliable.

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