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Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

science.org

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Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#51

Post by alsetmusic »

peyton wrote: post #34
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

There’s some more recent scholarship than Guns, Germs, and Steel . See Rationalizing Epidemics: Meanings and Uses of American Indian Mortality since 1600 [1]. The truth is maybe a bit more complicated. We had doctors volunteering to visit tribes who recorded what they observed firsthand. Personally, given the evidence at hand, I think it’s likely the populations on this continent were caught in large boom/bust cycles…

> we happened upon them

That's the thinking. It's not that people arrived. It's not that ancestors landed. It's that European's happened. This was unavoidable. The rest of the world was deficient for not being ready.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#52

Post by alsetmusic »

hax0ron3 wrote: post #39
alsetmusic wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's just objectively true that the Native Americans were far behind Europe in military technology and many other technologies in 1492. The person you're replying to never implied that the Natives were stupid savages.

> The person you're replying to never implied that the Natives were stupid savages.

They did. Natives didn't have agriculture:

> It definitely did. Also note that agriculture was invented in multiple places over time. Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough, so they had far less time for technological development before Europeans arrived. At which point, it was too late.

The unfortunate thing is that those dumb Natives didn't learn to grow things. Something that had been observed for thousands of years.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#53

Post by ViscountPenguin »

poisonarena wrote: post #44
melagonster wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Inca Empire had crazy plant breeding techniques.

they also didn't even invent the wheel

The wheel isn't that useful if you live on terrible terrain and have nothing to drive it with.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#54

Post by davidkuennen »

oceanplexian wrote: post #19
atleastoptimal wrote: post #13

350,000 years of just chilling, picking berries, you die in identical technological and cultural environment as when you were born. Now we got to be around when God is made in a data center

Correction: 350,000 years being riddled with parasites, fending off wild animal attacks, and avoiding being eaten alive by cannibals when your tribe runs out of food.

And just like that we just learned that parasites may have been good for us [1]

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8162934/

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#55

Post by ywvcbk »

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17
tyre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then about 12,000 years ago, the agricultural revolution, which probably unlocked much of the subsequent technological progress by enabling more food security and larger populations. It definitely did. Also note that agriculture was invented in multiple places over time. Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough, so they had far less time for technological development before Europeans arr…

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

They didn't invent it quickly enough i.e. they generally lagged behind Eurasian civilizations by several thousand years so by 1500 they were approximately still stuck in the bronze age or so.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#57

Post by Auracle »

AJMaxwell wrote: post #24
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

The lack of animals to domesticate meant fewer zoonotic diseases in Native American populations, so they were ill equipped when those diseases appeared. IIRC, there was a massive plague in North America a decade or so before Columbus arrived.

I never understand the “lack of animals to domesticate” angle. They did domesticate animals, such as the llama and alpaca.

More could have been domesticated and presumably would have been if the had more time to advance. It’s a shame giant sloths were killed off…

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#58

Post by t-3 »

ywvcbk wrote: post #55
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, the Native Americans did not invent it quickly enough This is false. Most native Americans throughout both continents— especially those in Mesoamerica—were powerful civilisations in their own right with plenty of agricultural history. What finished many of them off was a lack of resistance to smallpox, which was brought over by the first explorers/colonists.

They didn't invent it quickly enough i.e. they generally lagged behind Eurasian civilizations by several thousand years so by 1500 they were approximately still stuck in the bronze age or so.

American agriculture was very advanced for the time and the crops and ideas developed transformed food and agriculture throughout the rest of the world. What was lacking were beasts of burden and metallurgy and resistance to smallpox.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#59

Post by Auracle »

ViscountPenguin wrote: post #53
poisonarena wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they also didn't even invent the wheel

The wheel isn't that useful if you live on terrible terrain and have nothing to drive it with.

I live on a hilly plot and use a wheelbarrow or cart all the time in the summer.

Re: Neanderthals survived on a knife's edge for 350k years

#60

Post by t-3 »

poisonarena wrote: post #56
ViscountPenguin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wheel isn't that useful if you live on terrible terrain and have nothing to drive it with.

llamas and alpacas

Not great beasts of burden. Barely better than dog with travois, arguably worse than having an extra human to carry things.
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