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Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

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Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#51

You know what else is an obstacle to relativistic spaceflight? Being able to do relativistic space flight. Fun fact: people realized this a long time ago, and proposed different "shields" in front of the ship (it turns out that the most effective shape is a smoothed-out cone [of ice, say] -- see Asimov's Song of a Distant Earth).

Nitpick: The Songs of a Distant Earth is actually by Arthur C. Clarke.

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#52

That's okay, there's time to work on the shielding. 0.03 c is the most that can be feasibly achieved using top-end near future technology like dusty plasma fission fragment rockets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fission-fragment_rocket

Thermonuclear pulse propulsion (a la Project Orion) can do better than that- up to 0.1c. And that requires no unproven technology; just a lot of money and a lot of politics (and a lot of fission fuel to buy with that money; I dunno if it's more than you could actually get on the market or not, but it would definitely cost A Lot).

IIRC you're talking on the order of several hundred nuclear bombs for a single interstellar trip, i.e. a significant fraction of the current US warhead supply, but by no means the whole lot.

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#53
post #48
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'a few rouge hydrogen atoms' It's rogue. Sorry, pet hate, can't help myself. That and people typing 'tounge' when they mean tongue.

Unless the atoms were moving away from the observer, then they might appear a little rouged.

Aaaand, the obligatory XKCD for this: http://xkcd.com/1125/

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#54
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thermonuclear pulse propulsion (a la Project Orion) can do better than that- up to 0.1c. And that requires no unproven technology; just a lot of money and a lot of politics (and a lot of fission fuel to buy with that money; I dunno if it's more than you could actually get on the market or not, but it would definitely cost A Lot).

IIRC you're talking on the order of several hundred nuclear bombs for a single interstellar trip, i.e. a significant fraction of the current US warhead supply, but by no means the whole lot.

I think intersteller travel at sensible speeds would require rather more energy than that - the relevant Wikipedia page gives estimates (depending on the approach used) of 30 million to 300 thousand 1MT bombs which is, fortunately, a few orders of magnitude larger than any nuclear arsenal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_%28nuclear_propul...

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#55

There's one thing I never quite got about these speculations. When you consider a ship leaving a solar system and accelerating, and the speed gained turning the "ambient hydrogen" into deadly radiation, why does it always seem to assume that hydrogen atoms are just kind of hanging out at low velocities relative to the home solar system and only turn into a problem when the bald captain says "engage"? Its a big univer…

Because the hydrogen atoms we care about are bound in galactic orbit, and that means they have a relatively low maximum relative velocity to us. If they weren't, they would all fly out into the intergalactic void in geologically short timescales, star formation would cease, and we'd have no such radiation problems after all.

That might require us to change the name of the intergalactic void though.

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#56

There's also the risk of hitting small dust particles, etc. A quick back of the envelope calculation reveals that hitting a spec of dust that weighs just 1 ug (a millions of a gram) at 90% c produces ~36 mega joule. Not a huge amount of energy (about the energy of burning 1kg of coal), but still. Hitting a grain of sand (10mg) at 90% c produces ~360 giga joule (energy of a small lightning)

So you need a very lage ablation shield

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#57
I have always wondered what the probability of hitting a near-c object/dust particle/micrometeorite is between solar systems is within the galaxy. No doubt a near-c object (of any size) would end up trashing a spaceship, but whats the chances of it actually happening? Is it significant?

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#58

I think once we are advanced enough to figure out how to propel anything that fast or able to pack the needed energy, this part might be easy to solve. Remember per special relativity mass increases as we approach C. Also I think there will be other physiological problems while accelerating to C. It would take like 34 days at 10g acceleration to get to C. I wonder how our bodies would handle 34 days at that kind of g…

You need to learn more about relativity.

First, people on the ship will not feel as if they "have more mass". Their physical properties will be exactly identical, because they are at rest in their frame of reference. Flying through a galaxy at 0.999c is identical to "sitting still" while a galaxy flies by at 0.999c.

Second, you're ignoring relativistic effects in your calculation of the amount of time it takes to "reach c". You can't just divide light speed by the acceleration and convert to days. You need to include the effects of time and space dilation, in which case you'll find you have to pick a target less than c because no matter how long you accelerate you only approach c.

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#59

There's one thing I never quite got about these speculations. When you consider a ship leaving a solar system and accelerating, and the speed gained turning the "ambient hydrogen" into deadly radiation, why does it always seem to assume that hydrogen atoms are just kind of hanging out at low velocities relative to the home solar system and only turn into a problem when the bald captain says "engage"? Its a big univer…

In short, because the Milky Way disk sets a preferred rest frame. Other matter in the galaxy all rotates with approximately the same speed around the galactic center. Here are some numbers to give you intuition. Tangential speed of the galactic disk, obtained by averaging over nearby stars: ~ 250 km/s Speed of sun (and other nearby stars, in random directions) with respect to the galactic disk: ~ 15 km/s Speed of Ear…

thanks very much, this makes a whole lot more sense now

Re: Highly relativistic spaceflight would be fatal for passengers and instruments

#60

I can't help thinking that statements like these are merely meant to bog us down. I've heard and read statements like 'Interstellar travel isn't possible.' or my favourite 'We've enough problems down here on Earth already so let's forget about the more visionary ones altogether.' since the eighties. I mean, why does one become a scientist if one doesn't at least have some greater vision? This kind of statement seems…

I agree that both of the statements you gave are not productive. "Interstellar travel isn't possible" rejects all theories past and future without considering their individual merits, which is awfully arrogant. "We have enough problems down here on Earth" is short-sighted, in terms of a geological timescale. In a billion years, our most pressing problem on Earth will be that the expanding Sun will kill all terrestrial life. Hopefully some forward-thinking individuals will have worked out space travel by then.

I only read the abstract, but I don't think the article is nearly as prohibitive as your statements. It says that diverting the radioactive hydrogen is a "daunting problem" i.e. hard but not impossible. Even if Near-C space travel _is_ invariably fatal, that's not so broad as "interstellar travel isn't possible". There's still wormholes and hyperspace and whatever exotic ideas we might come up with in the future.

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