Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 208 posts

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#51

Post by shevy-java »

I do understand the rationale; and I have known kids who were addicted to gaming. So I don't disagree that this kind of addiction-mechanism in games, is somewhat similar to e. g. casino gambling where some people get hooked up and may be unable to exit that addiction, leading to massive loss. People are different - some are very easy to addict. Others have strategies against that. My simple strategy was to never start gambling - and never pay for playing a game (aside from the initial purchase, but the last game I bought was in the 1990s; back then games were IMO better too, ignoring the graphics).

Having said that, though, when I also combine this news with the attempt to force operating systems into sniffing for my age at all times, I am still totally against this. This kind of over-eager bureaucracy is not good. It reminds me of attempts to prohibit alcohol. Yes, it is not the same, a loot box does not cause physical symptoms really, compared to alcohol or, say, harder drugs - but states seem too eager to want to restrict people. Or monitor them, such as in the case of "age verification". So now this legislation is another basis to support mandatory age sniffing of everyone. So I am completely against it now.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#52

Post by shevy-java »

benoau wrote: post #3
nba456_ wrote: post #2

I never understood why video game lootboxes get regulated while real-life lootboxes like pokemon cards don't.

Because in real life the store clerk won't let a child spend $1000 on their parents card making purchases again and again and again and again and again, but a video game will let a child do it in less than an hour and consider that a success and try to understand how to stimulate another child to do so.

But that is still a strange argument, because IF the argument is that loot boxes are so dangerous and addictive, why can, say, a 19 years old do it but a 18 years old can not? That makes no logical sense. One year is a magical difference suddenly?

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#53

Post by JasonADrury »

hiccuphippo wrote: post #46
nurettin wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Differ all you want. No child will bankrupt a family at a trading card game store. These are physical goods paid in bulk with provisioning and there are laws for returning them. Another point of contention is the randomness of packs. The way you play is: You save up to buy the entire set of boosters and already get almost all cards you need for competitive or fun play. The rest you need to trade for or buy individual…

Allowing trading is a big part of it. Most online games never allow trading the things bought with real money, they get tied to your account. I guess as a way to prevent CC fraud but it still contributes to the issue.

Just to be clear, the biggest problems are associated with games that allow trading.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#54

Post by DanielBryars »

erxam wrote: post #13

Okay? How will this actually change anything? I don't think I have ever paid attention to a single age rating in my entire life. Does anyone do outside of fundamentalist parents who wouldn't let kids play most video games anyways? Very spiritually European move. What regulators should do is focus on easily applicable percentage-based fines. Make sure it's not just another line item.

Having age ratings is useful so I dont have to play a game to know its age suitability. Its common for very young children to play games, and age ratings help parents make informed responsible decisions. There are some dark addictive patterns being used in gaming such as changing the odds of reward to optimise engagement (and make money) - these patterns need an age rating. Additionally, I think age ratings encourage developers to avoid content which would increase the age rating, since they then target a wider audience.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#55

Post by Agentlien »

Razengan wrote: post #48

Yet again more moves which take away the liberty of all citizens and users instead of restricting predatory companies and products.. How much access to money parents want to give their kids is up to the parents. What people do with their own money, including kids, is up to the people. WHY are countries not enacting laws that punish companies for once? Say something like: • "After 3-5 purchases of the same item with r…

How does an age recommendation take away liberties?

I have kids and as a parent I use these ratings as a very loose guide combined with my own experience and understanding of the game in question. Other parents ignore them completely.

I agree more could be done to directly affect the companies, and there have been a lot of legal cases surrounding loot boxes aimed at children.

But this is a good complement to that. It makes it easier for parents to get aware of the issue.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#56

Post by shevy-java »

philistine wrote: post #36
nba456_ wrote: post #2

I never understood why video game lootboxes get regulated while real-life lootboxes like pokemon cards don't.

Resale value protects The Pokémon Company. Your child spent all your money on Pokémon cards? Resell the cards. You've just realized your 15 years long obsession has broken your life? Resell the cards. Aggrieved parties can partly get restoration. That way there never is enough political momentum to legiferate them. Try to resell your Fortnite account and they close it.

Reselling never recovers all costs, for most people. I know that because I sold many of my old magic cards when I stopped playing magic (due to lack of time). I recovered about 20% of my expenses at most.

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#57

Post by shevy-java »

Agentlien wrote: post #55
Razengan wrote: post #48

Yet again more moves which take away the liberty of all citizens and users instead of restricting predatory companies and products.. How much access to money parents want to give their kids is up to the parents. What people do with their own money, including kids, is up to the people. WHY are countries not enacting laws that punish companies for once? Say something like: • "After 3-5 purchases of the same item with r…

How does an age recommendation take away liberties? I have kids and as a parent I use these ratings as a very loose guide combined with my own experience and understanding of the game in question. Other parents ignore them completely. I agree more could be done to directly affect the companies, and there have been a lot of legal cases surrounding loot boxes aimed at children. But this is a good complement to that. It…

> How does an age recommendation take away liberties?

For instance, by being used in further legislation to mandate age verification on all operating systems. Lo and behold, that is already happening - see California.

One can not view a single law and assume it is isolated, when in reality this is a move by lobbyists to further restrict people and sniff after them (see MidnightBSD giving in and adding a daemon that sniffs for user data; I am 100% certain systemd on Linux will follow suit, via a new systemd-sniffy daemon). Some companies pay good money for such legislation. So the answer to your question is very simple, actually. You just should not view it as an isolated way while ignoring everything else - lobbyists are sneaky. It reminds me of Google claiming it has no problem with ad-blockers, then they went on to destroy ublock origin (https://ublockorigin.com/).

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#58

Post by Razengan »

Agentlien wrote: post #55
Razengan wrote: post #48

Yet again more moves which take away the liberty of all citizens and users instead of restricting predatory companies and products.. How much access to money parents want to give their kids is up to the parents. What people do with their own money, including kids, is up to the people. WHY are countries not enacting laws that punish companies for once? Say something like: • "After 3-5 purchases of the same item with r…

How does an age recommendation take away liberties? I have kids and as a parent I use these ratings as a very loose guide combined with my own experience and understanding of the game in question. Other parents ignore them completely. I agree more could be done to directly affect the companies, and there have been a lot of legal cases surrounding loot boxes aimed at children. But this is a good complement to that. It…

> How does an age recommendation take away liberties?

They've already enacted mandatory age-verification-via-ID to use apps/features.

It seems they're gonna put as many "gates/fences" at every N age years to make sure they can surveil as many people in distinct age brackets as possible.

Up next: Be of at least N years to watch cartoons with animated violence?

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#59

Post by riffraff »

shevy-java wrote: post #52
benoau wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in real life the store clerk won't let a child spend $1000 on their parents card making purchases again and again and again and again and again, but a video game will let a child do it in less than an hour and consider that a success and try to understand how to stimulate another child to do so.

But that is still a strange argument, because IF the argument is that loot boxes are so dangerous and addictive, why can, say, a 19 years old do it but a 18 years old can not? That makes no logical sense. One year is a magical difference suddenly?

Because you have to draw a line somewhere, if you want a line.

This same reasoning applies to sex consent, voting, driving, working.

We want to say "only qualified people can do x" but it's impossible to encode this in regulations and it always boils down to the sorites paradox.

So as a culture we have defaulted to "age is a good a proxy for being qualified".

Re: Games with loot boxes to get minimum 16 age rating across Europe

#60

Post by bsder »

nba456_ wrote: post #2

I never understood why video game lootboxes get regulated while real-life lootboxes like pokemon cards don't.

Tradeability. In real life you can just buy the card. That sets a hard upper limit to the losses.

Whereas gacha games and lootboxes are notorious for unpublished, ridiculously bad odds for "desirable" things with no way to outright purchase them.

Post reply on HN