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Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

nytimes.com

51–60 of 469 posts

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#51

You have to hold AI hand to do even simple vanilla JS correctly. Or do framework code which is well documented all over the net. I love AI and use it for programming a lot, but the limitations are real.

I must say, I do love how this comment has provoked such varying responses.

My own observations about using AI to write code is that it changes my position from that of an author to a reviewer. And I find code review to be a much more exhausting task than writing code in the first place, especially when you have to work out how and why the AI-generated code is structured the way it is.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#52
It's an accelerator. A great tool if used well. But just like all the innovations before it that were going to replace programmers it simply won't.

I used Claude just the other day to write unit test coverage for a tricky system that handles resolving updates into a consistent view of the world and handles record resurrection/deletion. It wrote great test coverage because it parsed my headerdoc and code comments that went into great detail about the expected behavior. The hard part of that implementation was the prose I wrote and the thinking required to come up with it. The actual lines of code were already a small part of the problem space. So yeah Claude saved me a day or two of monotonously writing up test cases. That's great.

Of course Claude also spat out some absolute garbage code using reflection to poke at internal properties because the access level didn't allow the test to poke at the things it wanted to poke at, along with some methods that were calling themselves in infinite recursion. Oh and a bunch of lines that didn't even compile.

The thing is about those errors: most of them were a fundamental inability to reason. They were technically correct in a sense. I can see how a model that learned from other code written by humans would learn those patterns and apply them. In some contexts they would be best-practice or even required. But the model can't reason. It has no executive function.

I think that is part of what makes these models both amazingly capable and incredibly stupid at the same time.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#53
For one thing comments here appear to apply to the quality and issues today not potentially going forward. Quality will change quicker than anyone expects. I am wondering how many people at HN remember when the first Mac came out with Mac Paint and then Pagemaker or Quark. That didn't evolve anywhere nearly as quickly as AI appears to be.

Also I am not seeing how anyone is considering that what a programmer considers quality and what 'gets the job done' (as mentioned in the article) matters in any business. (Example with typesetting is original laser printers were only 300dpi but after a short period became 1200dpi 'good enough' for camera ready copy).

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#54
> “The reason that tech generally — and coders in particular — see L.L.M.s differently than everyone else is that in the creative disciplines, L.L.M.s take away the most soulful human parts of the work and leave the drudgery to you,” Dash says. “And in coding, L.L.M.s take away the drudgery and leave the human, soulful parts to you.”

This doesn’t really make sense to me. GenAI ostensibly removes the drudgery from other creative endeavors too. You don’t need to make every painstaking brushstroke anymore; you can get to your intended final product faster than ever. I think a common misunderstanding is that the drudgery is really inseparable from the soulful part.

Also, I think GenAI in coding actually has the exact same failure modes as GenAI in painting, music, art, writing, etc. The output lacks depth, it lacks context, and it lacks an understanding of its own purpose. For most people, it’s much easier to intuitively see those shortcomings of GenAI manifest in traditional creative mediums, just because they come more naturally to us. For coding, I suspect the same shortcomings apply, they just aren’t as clear.

I mean, at the end of the day if writing code is just to get something that works, then sure, let’s blitz away with LLMs and not bother to understand what we’re doing or why we do it anymore. Maybe I’m naive in thinking that coding has creative value that we’re now throwing away, possibly forever.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#55
post #10
post #6

What is a coder? Someone who is handed the full specs and sits down and just types code? I have never met such a person. The most annoying part of SWE is everyone who isn't an SWE has inane ideas about what we do.

Never worked on offshoring projects? That is exactly what the sweatshop coders do.

No we don't.

For one, I never saw a "full spec" (if such a thing even exists) back in my days of making 8k. Annually.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#56
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's just not even remotely my experience. and i am ~20k hours into my programming career. ai makes most things so much faster that it is hard to justify ever doing large classes of things yourself (as much as this hurts my aesthetic sensibilities, it simply is what it is).

Part of this depends on if you care that the AI wrote the code "your way." I've been in shops with rather exotic and specific style guides and standards which the AI would not or will not conform to.

then have ai write a deterministic transformation tool that turns it into the specific style and standard that is needed

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#58

You have to hold AI hand to do even simple vanilla JS correctly. Or do framework code which is well documented all over the net. I love AI and use it for programming a lot, but the limitations are real.

Most of this thread is debating whether models are good or bad at writing code... however, I think a more important question is what we feed the AI with because that dramatically determines the quality of the output.

When your agent explores your codebase trying to understand what to build, it read schema files, existing routes, UI components etc... easily 50-100k tokens of implementation detail. It's basically reverse-engineering intent from code. With that level of ambiguous input, no wonder the results feel like junior work.

When you hand it a structured spec instead including data model, API contracts, architecture constraints etc., the agent gets 3-5x less context at much higher signal density. Instead of guessing from what was built it knows exactly what to build. Code quality improves significantly.

I've measured this across ~47 features in a production codebase with amedian ratio: 4x less context with specs vs. random agent code exploration. For UI-heavy features it's 8-25x. The agent reads 2-3 focused markdown files instead of grepping through hundreds of KB of components.

To pick up @wek's point about planning from above: devs who get great results from agentic development aren't better prompt engineers... they're better architects. They write the spec before the code, which is what good engineering always was... AI just made the payoff for that discipline 10x more visible.

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#59

Another trash article from the New York Times, who financially benefit from this type of content because of their ongoing litigation against OpenAI. I think the assumption that developers don't code is wrong. Most software engineers don't even want to code, they are opportunists looking to make money. I have yet to experience this cliff of coding. These people aren't asking for hard enough questions. I have a bunch o…

Also the fact that NYT gives all their devs licenses to Cursor and Claude

Re: Coding after coders: The end of computer programming as we know it?

#60
post #45

You have to hold AI hand to do even simple vanilla JS correctly. Or do framework code which is well documented all over the net. I love AI and use it for programming a lot, but the limitations are real.

AI assisted code can't even stick to the API documentation, especially if the data structures are not consistent and have evolved over time. You would see Claude literally pulling function after function from thin air, desperately trying to fulfill your complicated business logic and even when it's complete, it doesn't look neat at all. Yes, it will have test coverage, but one more feature request will probably break…

I definitely wonder if the people going all-in on AI harnessing are working on greenfield projects, because it seems overwhelming to try to get that set up on a brownfield codebase where the patterns aren't consistent and the code quality is mixed.
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