Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

poetryfoundation.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 116 posts

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#51

Post by stoneman24 »

oniony wrote: post #5

In the 1990s, in the UK, my secondary school English teacher, who had Shakespearian actor vibes and wore dark tweed trousers and a plain white shirt—imagine Patrick Stewart if you may—brought this poem to life in my class by vividly reenacting a soldier dying from mustard gas poisoning by falling onto a desk and flailing about in front of the stunnned students sitting at it. I've never forgotten the closing line sinc…

We did the poem in secondary school as well. While we didn’t have the acting skills of your teacher, we deconstructed and reviewed each line and it really had a powerful impact on the class. The tortured helplessness of the dying soldier was a lasting memory.

Later, I thought that the job of a soldier wasn’t to die for their country but to make someone else die for theirs. Perhaps that more cynical view was influenced by the poem and the other war poets that we covered.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#52

Post by 6510 »

beloch wrote: post #33

The ceremony, pomp and reverence we pay to soldiers and the fallen are all aimed at making sure the young remain willing to do an ugly job at affordable prices. For every poem like this there is a parade, monument, wreath-laying ceremony, or the modern equivalent of young girls handing white feathers to young boys. It seems ungrateful to view it this way. We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we l…

And with "sometimes" we mean we cant remember the last time it didn't happen.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#53

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

wk_end wrote: post #25
georgemcbay wrote: post #14

For modern readers we might need an update to the old lie about how it is sweet and fitting to die for an entirely different country than your own. One you have probably never even visited.

Seems a bit like an historically blinkered statement. There's a long history of countries militarily supporting their allies; there's nothing "modern" about this. Most of the countries in WWI - which this poem is about - entered the war because of existing alliances, not because they were personally affected by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. While the US was indeed attacked by the Japanese in WWII, th…

Vietnam was Lyndon B Johnson making money from weapons procurement and supporting his donors. (Such as Brown and Root, who started the war as a tiny firm and ended it as one of the biggest contractors in the US.)

Iraq was Dick Cheney's sponsors making money from oil and arms deals.

Afghanistan was Bush's sponsors making money from weapons procurement.

Iran is Trump's sponsors making money from oil and arms deals, plus some crusading crank millenarianism for the faithful.

Gaza is a straightforward land grab and real estate development opportunity with some cynical other-abuse thrown in.

None of these have anything at all to do with realistic threats to non-rich people.

It's always money. Always. Someone always makes money from these things.

The disposable shlub in the Oval Office gets the reputational damage, but their funders are so happy they can barely count.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#54

Post by fwipsy »

skmurphy wrote: post #22

Henry Newbolt's Vitai Lampada https://net.lib.byu.edu/english/wwi/influences/vitai.html Captures a sense of duty against the realities of war. Randall Jarrell's "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/57860/the-death-of-th... Is a much grimmer perspective. Richard Grenier captured the truth for civil society: "As George Orwell pointed out, people sleep peacefully in their beds at nigh…

We need our rough men and nuclear weapons because they have theirs. I think I would sleep deeper if no one had them.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#55

Post by endgame »

NoboruWataya wrote: post #20

While we're sharing anti-war songs/poetry, I like And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda (originally written by Eric Bogle, but I personally like the Pogues' version): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKURhqmSLmM

The Australians have some incredible anti-war music. Redgum's /I was only 19/ is brutal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UYDKxxQ50o

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#56

Post by caaqil »

beloch wrote: post #33

The ceremony, pomp and reverence we pay to soldiers and the fallen are all aimed at making sure the young remain willing to do an ugly job at affordable prices. For every poem like this there is a parade, monument, wreath-laying ceremony, or the modern equivalent of young girls handing white feathers to young boys. It seems ungrateful to view it this way. We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we l…

> We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we live in.

Why? It's a job. Chosen voluntarily (usually), with known risks. Never mind the propaganda part that they are dying for a "world we live in". How a soldier dying for some war with dubious morality is owed any "debt" is beyond me.

I submit that we owe others who died doing some kind of public good much more debt than some dude who was duped into sacrificing his life to gun down others for some made-up reason. It's really hard to find any soldier who died for a good cause for most of the past century actually.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#57

Post by jongjong »

actionfromafar wrote: post #50
jongjong wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it but I don't buy this. You don't need to fight for this. You just need to live according to your values. My ancestors' country had (and still have) nice values. Used to be under the control of France, then switched to British control, then back to French control. This happened without any war or fighting. Nothing changed for the people. They even kept speaking French. Many got rich still; just had to decide w…

That recipe doesn’t work universally, there are wars of expulsion and extermination.

If your values are non-violent and you're value producers, that doesn't happen. Sure, there can be situations where the land itself is valuable and the people on it are only a liability, but usually the value is in the people themselves.

Re: Dulce et Decorum Est (1921)

#59

Post by netsharc »

caaqil wrote: post #56
beloch wrote: post #33

The ceremony, pomp and reverence we pay to soldiers and the fallen are all aimed at making sure the young remain willing to do an ugly job at affordable prices. For every poem like this there is a parade, monument, wreath-laying ceremony, or the modern equivalent of young girls handing white feathers to young boys. It seems ungrateful to view it this way. We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we l…

> We owe a real debt to the soldiers who died for the world we live in. Why? It's a job. Chosen voluntarily (usually), with known risks. Never mind the propaganda part that they are dying for a "world we live in". How a soldier dying for some war with dubious morality is owed any "debt" is beyond me. I submit that we owe others who died doing some kind of public good much more debt than some dude who was duped into s…

"Voluntarily". I guess that word fits if being a cog in the capitalist machine is voluntary. Lots of US soldiers are poor kids with no prospects, the USA offers subsidized education and healthcare, but only after you put your body on the line to be shot at because the child-rapist-in-chief and a Fox News alcoholic wants to please their corrupt Israeli daddy...

Amongst Netanyahu's corruption charges is that he and his wife used taxpayer money to rent a celebrity chef. Imagine expanding a genocide to WW3 because you wanted to escape accountability for stealing public money to pay for some overpriced dinner...

Post reply on HN