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Excommunicated devs making games with AI

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Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#51

Post by bilekas »

peteforde wrote: post #43
bilekas wrote: post #36

I think the article is being s bit disingenuous. The real problem is triple A developers and publishers pushing for it to replace a not insignificant amount of creative work. While still over charging everyone and scalpling every $ from everyone with micro transactions and game mechanics that need xp boosters.

What you are describing is a completely different set of problems. They are both real and coexist, often at the same time.

> They are both real and coexist, often at the same time.

Are they though because I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend.

I see it only in the double/triple `A` scene.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#53

Post by yellowapple »

bilekas wrote: post #36

I think the article is being s bit disingenuous. The real problem is triple A developers and publishers pushing for it to replace a not insignificant amount of creative work. While still over charging everyone and scalpling every $ from everyone with micro transactions and game mechanics that need xp boosters.

I don't think the article pointing out the existence of AI use outside of that “real problem” is disingenuity. It's possible to simultaneously condone indie developers using AI to make the most of their limited budgets and condemn AAA studios for using AI to lay off their workers; conflating one with the other just makes it harder to have an honest and productive conversation about whether AI helps or hurts software development as a profession and a craft.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#54

Post by yellowapple »

bilekas wrote: post #51
peteforde wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are describing is a completely different set of problems. They are both real and coexist, often at the same time.

> They are both real and coexist, often at the same time. Are they though because I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend. I see it only in the double/triple `A` scene.

> I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend

Not specifically “game” developers, but I do see attempts at that ostracization on the OSDev subreddit; at least one participant there has posted progress updates on a vibe-coded hobby OS, and each of those updates ends up deluged with people complaining specifically about the AI use.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#55

Post by bigyabai »

peteforde wrote: post #44
tezza wrote: post #33

My latest game BossBattle[1] (html5, have a play) uses AI for graphics, some strobe effects, a C64 loading screen shader. I have decided to lean in to it and I will document all the places I use AI in the game on my blog[2]. Not everything works, notably 3D assets[3] and sound effects. There is a lot of human content… i paid for a lot out of my own pocket and have limited budget. It started in 2021 before chatgpt. LL…

I commend you for being willing to share. The "able to make the X" thing is something haters love to ignore. Best of luck with your beta!

I don't think it's hate; the games market was oversaturated before AI, and it's even more saturated with it. Players have limited time and patience that usually doesn't work out in-favor of indies.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#56

Post by yellowapple »

raincole wrote: post #50
peteforde wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree. Let me try and change your mind. Let's say that you have been building your passion project; it could be a game, it could be a synth, it could be a mobile app. You were a year into development already when LLMs blew up, and you very quickly realized that you could leverage them to move much, much faster. This allowed you to tackle a long list of features that realistically would have never left t…

Steam has an AI disclaimer now and many games with the disclaimer still sell well. So yeah it's totally victim mentality. The evidence is just right on Steam, but instead of actually looking at the largest market in the gaming world some AI bros chose to fight an imaginary enemy in their minds. https://www.totallyhuman.io/blog/games-with-ai-disclosures-h...

Per your link, only 6% of those games made more than $10k.

Also, the AI disclaimer covers the very broad category of “AI has touched some part of this project at some point, no matter how minor, and no matter if it was eventually replaced with non-AI assets”. The original article seems to be more about the narrower category of “AI is a significant part of this project”, which would exclude nearly all of the top-12-grossing games that your link covers.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#57

Post by yellowapple »

Madmallard wrote: post #32
peteforde wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I mean AI art is for sure super samey and plagiarized and uninteresting stylistically It's instantly recognizable and makes most indie games that disclose it just dead on arrival

> plagiarized

Unless you can point to specific works that something allegedly plagiarizes, the “plagiarism” allegation is meaningless.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#58

Post by bilekas »

yellowapple wrote: post #54
bilekas wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are both real and coexist, often at the same time. Are they though because I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend. I see it only in the double/triple `A` scene.

> I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend Not specifically “game” developers, but I do see attempts at that ostracization on the OSDev subreddit; at least one participant there has posted progress updates on a vibe-coded hobby OS, and each of those updates ends up deluged with people complaining specifically about the AI use.

> and each of those updates ends up deluged with people complaining specifically about the AI use

I would genuinely like to see this thread, because if the comments are legitimate and backed up by examples, ie : "This is XSS vulnerable" etc.. then even with the prefix of "AI Slop" I'm fine with..

I think it's fair people don't get too comfortable with just trusting vibe coded agents, when in my own experience, the bugs they leave around are often harder to identify from a simple review than a simple architeture misalignment.

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#59

Post by ausbah »

peteforde wrote: post #39
Madmallard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean AI art is for sure super samey and plagiarized and uninteresting stylistically It's instantly recognizable and makes most indie games that disclose it just dead on arrival

Exactly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47229458 You should consider that there is a rather large gulf between low-effort crap and using agentic LLMs to make more sophisticated games faster before you downvote me. It's just not black and white, and to treat it as such devalues the conversation.

ofc there’s a spectrum in LLM usage, but the usage scenario of LLMs as a “supervised force multiplier” (paraphrasing your linked comment) isn’t how most near anyone uses them. I can’t imagine gamedev is any different.

what a vast majority of LLM usage appears to me is as a unsupervised slop multiplier. any social media platform, including hacker news is rife with a deluge of unpolished LLM generated turds that creators pass off as their own work when they can’t even explain half of how it works or what it does.

circling back with gamedev specifically and art more generally. sure if LLMs are just one part of the process to push out some grander, well thought out vision who am I to really care. again thought, that isn’t what I see. I only see untalented lazy “excommunicated devs” passing off the most bottom of the barrel trash as “games”

Re: Excommunicated devs making games with AI

#60

Post by peteforde »

bilekas wrote: post #58
yellowapple wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see the discourse of indie or single game developers being ostracized in some public shaming trend Not specifically “game” developers, but I do see attempts at that ostracization on the OSDev subreddit; at least one participant there has posted progress updates on a vibe-coded hobby OS, and each of those updates ends up deluged with people complaining specifically about the AI use.

> and each of those updates ends up deluged with people complaining specifically about the AI use I would genuinely like to see this thread, because if the comments are legitimate and backed up by examples, ie : "This is XSS vulnerable" etc.. then even with the prefix of "AI Slop" I'm fine with.. I think it's fair people don't get too comfortable with just trusting vibe coded agents, when in my own experience, the bu…

It would elevate the conversation significantly if people didn't use "vibe coding" and AI use interchangeably.

I don't use Reddit, but you don't have to look for a specific thread. It often feels like there's a mob of people just waiting for fresh meat to wander into their camp. Literally any thread referencing AI on this site is full of people who appear to have nothing but venom and contempt for people who use these tools.

It's not everyone, but loud minorities are still loud.

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