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Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

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Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#51

Post by fc417fc802 »

kmeisthax wrote: post #31
lokar wrote: post #2

Does it run applications? The point of the law is to collect (and device setup) the age of the (I guess primary?) user, and communicate that (as a range?) to any applications it runs. So, if you don't run applications, does this matter? Also, enforcement is by the CA attorney general, so random people can't go after you.

The California bill basically says any OS with an app store needs to collect an age signal and provide age bucketing to an app store (presumably even third-party ones, but notably NOT extension stores) so it can forward that information onto developers in that store. There's no further elaboration on what age signals are preferred, so my assumption is that a DoB field in the user profile and a system service to reque…

> Like, how does this work with enterprise systems?

You put the age of the owning company. If the company is under 18 then too bad for you.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#52

Post by iamnothere »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #48
Brian_K_White wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already way too much as far as I'm concerned. It's not that it's difficult, it's that it's arbitrary and a form of commanded speech or action. Smallness and easiness isn't an excuse. If you write a story, there must be a character in it somewhere that reminds kids not to smoke. That's all. It's very easy.

I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where…

Under no circumstances should we be “mandating” how hobbyists write their software. If you want to scope this to commercial OSes, be my guest. That’s not what was done here.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#53

Post by fc417fc802 »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #18
tliltocatl wrote: post #8

IANAL, but the whole thing feels quite problematic. Should we interpret the prohibition as a licensing condition "a resident using our IP is violating the contract" or as an informative note "we are not compliant and we are not ever going to be compliant so a resident using the IP is violating local laws"? I'd expect the intent to be the latter, but would it hold in front of a judge? If the notice is a licensing cond…

> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all. It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it'…

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious.

The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.

Imagine you live in the suburbs, but at some point the house to your left got demolished and replaced with a casino that doesn't ID anyone. The house to your right got demolished and replaced with a liquor store that doesn't ID anyone. And the house across the street got demolished and replaced with the headquarters of a local group of political extremists.

Sure, there also happens to be an award winning library a couple houses down. But that's largely irrelevant when it comes to the question of how you're supposed to raise children in this environment.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#54

Post by chungy »

parasense wrote: post #24
drnick1 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately, it does not matter. This legal notice is just theater, as anyone from CA or CO can still download, build and use the program. Linux distributions will just do the same.

Certainly. However, The developer seems to want to avoid the $2,500 per violation by any child who accesses the calculator, and might see a dick pic... because that calculator firmware does indeed allow for image viewing, and application development. It's more powerful than your PC back in the late 1990s.

> It's more powerful than your PC back in the late 1990s.

Sounds like a fun thought, but almost certainly untrue: https://www.swissmicros.com/product/dm42

All new PCs sold in the late 1990s handedly beat these specifications. On CPU, storage, RAM, and display. The DM42 firmly remains an embedded system that's just enough for the calculator software and not much more.

If you want to take it back to the early 1980s, you start reaching the claim being true.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#55

Post by fc417fc802 »

iamnothere wrote: post #52
fc417fc802 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually don't mind mandating the market take reasonable actions. The EU mandating USB C was an excellent move that materially improved things. However I think mandated actions should to the greatest extent possible be minimal, privacy preserving, and have an unambiguous goal that is clearly accomplished. This legislation fails in that regard because it mandates sharing personal information with third parties where…

Under no circumstances should we be “mandating” how hobbyists write their software. If you want to scope this to commercial OSes, be my guest. That’s not what was done here.

I'm not sure where the line between "hobby" and "professional" lies when it comes to linux distributions. Many of them are nonprofit but not really hobbyist at this point. Debian sure feels like a professional product to me (I daily drive it).

We regulate how a hobbyist constructs and uses a radio. We regulate how a hobbyist constructs a shed in his yard or makes modifications to the electrical wiring in his house.

I think mandating the implementation of strictly device local filtering based on a standardized HTTP header (or in the case of apps an attached metadata field) would be reasonably non-invasive and of benefit to society (similar to mandating USB C).

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#56

Post by tliltocatl »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #53
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And on the actual matter of things, it's really sad to see California to be on the front line of this crap (this screams ageism). And, dear "adults", screw your parental authority so much. Whatever skills I've gained before the university I've done against an explicit parental prohibition. This is what I live off now. Screw you all. It's yet another surface that totalitarian parental control has crept into, and it'…

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

You shouldn't apply that kind of thinking to global things. Because what you end up doing is nuking library on earth - there might be a casino somewhere near there. I see your concerns, but, ultimately, parent's carving for a comfortable illusion of control is less important than child's rights. And yes, I'll repeat it again, it's not child's best interest to have their surroundings controlled and censored.

And for reference, when I was talking about my personal experience, I wasn't talking about 80's. More like mid- to late- 00's Russia. The internet was already quite a cesspool at the time, the local IRL even more so. Just I wasn't interested. Once a teen is interested in getting into the edgy stuff there is no amount of regulation can stop them.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#58

Post by croes »

conartist6 wrote: post #36
croes wrote: post #33

From the other post about this law. > That's likely no big deal for Windows, which already requires you to enter your date of birth during the Microsoft Account setup procedure This seems like an over reaction because of a simple date field

Why would I need a Microsoft account to use Windows.

The point is, it’s not about verification but a simple date field.

Like those sites where you have to enter a birthdate before you can see the content

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#59

Post by hagbard_c »

drnick1 wrote: post #11
iamnothere wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, where does anything in the CA bill mandate age verification? It's saying the OS needs to prompt for age bracket info and allow the third party apps to query that. That is far different from verification. Regardless of the technical details of the law(s), the devs are sensibly refusing to prompt for age on a fricking calculator . Hopefully Linux distros get on board with this and announce non-CA/CO compliance…

Ultimately, it does not matter. This legal notice is just theater, as anyone from CA or CO can still download, build and use the program. Linux distributions will just do the same.

Well, no, that's not how laws like this work. Of course people in these states can just install the software and it is very likely nothing more will come from that unless some politico in one of these states decides she has a beef against the company, group or person which distributes the software. When that happens she'll have this law at hand to whack them with because the knowingly violated state law so they need to be dealt with, won't anyone think of the children?.

Re: Open source calculator firmware DB48X forbids CA/CO use due to age verification

#60

Post by fc417fc802 »

tliltocatl wrote: post #56
fc417fc802 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were the late 80s I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But it isn't. Every device under the sun seems to have a web browser and wifi built into it at this point. Even most TVs are "smart" these days. If you told me that your refrigerator had a web browser and an app store I would assume you were entirely serious. The internet is full of amazing things but it is simultaneously a largely unfiltered cesspool.…

You shouldn't apply that kind of thinking to global things . Because what you end up doing is nuking library on earth - there might be a casino somewhere near there. I see your concerns, but, ultimately, parent's carving for a comfortable illusion of control is less important than child's rights. And yes, I'll repeat it again, it's not child's best interest to have their surroundings controlled and censored. And for…

> there might be a casino somewhere near there.

That's approximately my whole point. We have zoning laws. We have age verification laws. We have lots of ordinances about what is and isn't appropriate in public and around children and similar. You can't open a strip club across the street from a public school and I think that's a very good thing.

The vast global unfiltered internet is increasingly pervading our lives. I think it is entirely reasonable to enact minimal regulation that stems the tide with respect to a narrowly defined goal.

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