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Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

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Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#51

Post by w1ntermute »

potatolicious wrote: post #40
colmvp wrote: post #3

'Success' As an Asian male, even though I might be highly educated, make a comfortable amount of money, own properties, be a productive citizen (blah blah blah), nothing softens the blow of hearing women (both Asian and non-Asian) saying they'd never date an Asian guy or saying Asian guys aren't attractive. Or seeing advertisements/movies that always show mixed couples as White male - Asian female. Or watching 21st c…

I hear you, but believe it or not it's slowly but surely changing. On the bright side, "Asian male" in the USA may mean a severe handicap (order of magnitude really) in the dating arena vs. "white male", but it's also a tremendous advantage over "black male", "hispanic male", and "south asian male". All in all as an east Asian, not complaining too much. It could be much, much worse.

> it's also a tremendous advantage over "black male", "hispanic male", and "south asian male".

Are you joking? I don't know about Hispanic or South Asian, but white girls love black guys.

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#52

Post by bane »

colmvp wrote: post #3

'Success' As an Asian male, even though I might be highly educated, make a comfortable amount of money, own properties, be a productive citizen (blah blah blah), nothing softens the blow of hearing women (both Asian and non-Asian) saying they'd never date an Asian guy or saying Asian guys aren't attractive. Or seeing advertisements/movies that always show mixed couples as White male - Asian female. Or watching 21st c…

It's funny, my wife and I were just talking about this a week or so ago...except that we were noticing that things seem to be changing. 10 years ago the only white female-asian male couple we could even think of was Bruce Lee and his wife. These days we personally know of 3 couples in this category and it appears to be growing.

But that being said I personally think the qualities of who you see is more important than their race.

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#53

Post by chrischen »

w1ntermute wrote: post #34
chrischen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is probably cultural rather than any objective reason for it. If you go to Asia, you shouldn't have any problems. But here in the West where most people are white, and what's portrayed as handsome and sexy in the media, arts, and culturally significant works like movies will predominantly be white people. I theorize that the reason Asian women will fair a little better is because the society here is still patria…

> If you go to Asia, you shouldn't have any problems. But here in the West where most people are white, and what's portrayed as handsome and sexy in the media, arts, and culturally significant works like movies will predominantly be white people. Actually, if you go to Asia, the same imbalance is found - white men have an amazingly easy time of picking up women there, without even knowing the local language and/or cu…

At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction.

Plus wasn't there a survey that said Asian women preferred their own race more than any other type of women?

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#54

Post by w1ntermute »

chrischen wrote: post #53
w1ntermute wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you go to Asia, you shouldn't have any problems. But here in the West where most people are white, and what's portrayed as handsome and sexy in the media, arts, and culturally significant works like movies will predominantly be white people. Actually, if you go to Asia, the same imbalance is found - white men have an amazingly easy time of picking up women there, without even knowing the local language and/or cu…

At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction. Plus wasn't there a survey that said Asian women preferred their own race more than any other type of women?

> At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction.

That's entirely possible, but that's why I mentioned the fact that it occurs in all Asian countries, regardless of wealth. Even in Japan, a first world country, you will find this exact same phenomenon. In fact, China's adversarial relationship with the West and general social conservativeness means that it's probably more so in Japan than in China. Either way, it's not just for money (assuming that's what you meant by "status").

> Plus wasn't there a survey that said Asian women preferred their own race more than any other type of women?

From this chart[0], it's actually the exact opposite for Asian women in America. Notice how the ratio of Asian men marrying women of other races to Asian women marrying men of other races is lower than for any other race, while the reverse is observed among blacks (black men are much more likely to marry someone of another race than black women):

> Gender differences are most pronounced among blacks and Asians. Black men marry someone from a different group twice as often as black women do, while among Asians, the gender pattern is reversed.

My personal theory as to why this disparity exists is that Asian physical characteristics are seen as feminine, while African physical characteristics are seen as masculine. So Asian men are seen as effeminate, which reduces their attractiveness to women of any race. Similarly, black women are seen as masculine, which reduces their attractiveness to men of any race.

However, there have been some anomalies. For example, through the hallyu and the internet, Korean pop and dramas have gained great popularity amongst a significant number of white, black, and Hispanic women over the last 5-10 years. This has created a lot of non-Asian women with a so-called "Koreaboo"[1] fetish for Asian men. This is largely an illusion though, as the vast majority of Asian men don't look like Rain[2] or Song Seung Heon[3].

0: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/01/29/us/20110130mix...

1: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=koreaboo

2: http://i.imgur.com/0K7JF.jpg

3: http://i.imgur.com/7oAGm.jpg

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#55

Post by chrischen »

w1ntermute wrote: post #54
chrischen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction. Plus wasn't there a survey that said Asian women preferred their own race more than any other type of women?

> At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction. That's entirely possible, but that's why I mentioned the fact that it occurs in all Asian countries, regardless of wealth. Even in Japan, a first world country, you will find this exact same phenomenon. In fact, China's adversarial relationship with the West and general social conservativeness means that it's probably m…

I think the Koreaboo thing largely supports my culture argument for what determines sexual desirability. While most Asian men don't look exactly like those two guys, they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity.

I'm sure most white guys in Asia don't look like George Clooney or Brad Pitt either.

I also want to point out that the West exports more of its culture out to other countries of the world than do Asian cultures out in the West, so that also creates more desirability for Westerners.

My relatives in China know who Tom Cruise, Michael Jackson, and Brad Pitt are, but I doubt anyone in the US knows anyone who's famous only in Asia.

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#56

Post by w1ntermute »

chrischen wrote: post #55
w1ntermute wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least in China, I'd think it has to do more with status than necessarily physical attraction. That's entirely possible, but that's why I mentioned the fact that it occurs in all Asian countries, regardless of wealth. Even in Japan, a first world country, you will find this exact same phenomenon. In fact, China's adversarial relationship with the West and general social conservativeness means that it's probably m…

I think the Koreaboo thing largely supports my culture argument for what determines sexual desirability. While most Asian men don't look exactly like those two guys, they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity. I'm sure most white guys in Asia don't look like George Clooney or Brad Pitt either. I also want to point out that the West exports mor…

> they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity.

I wouldn't say that's true. Rain is a (famous) exception in this regard, but most Korean entertainers get blepharoplasty[0], a surgery that makes Asian eyes look more Western.

Moreover, why is it that Korean popular culture has succeeded in such a big way in the West when Japan did not in the 70s/80s, when it was a rising economic star? Well, Japan is a much bigger country and so the entertainment industry is more than content to appeal to only domestic tastes, since they can make a decent living off of that. Even the most rabid Koreaboo would not go for popular Japanese styles in men, such as this[1].

Korea, OTOH, has strived to display more internationally appealing (read: Western) characteristics in their entertainers, because they're a smaller country and the rate of IP infringement is much higher (OTOH, Japan has one of the lowest rates in the world). They need foreign interest in their entertainment industry to turn a decent profit. They initially aimed to have pan-Asian appeal, but that has (luckily, but unintentionally for them) morphed into global appeal.

You're absolutely right that Hollywood actors do not represent the average white guy. But I've been to Japan and seen white guys who look nothing like Clooney or Pitt, guys who are total geeks ("Charisma Men"), get treated like royalty by the local women.

Could you ever see the reverse happening in the West? No, all those Koreaboos are rudely awakened when they find out that most Asian guys don't look like their favorite Korean drama actor. And the statistics back this up.

The export of culture from the West to Asia definitely plays a role in all this, and could very well be the primary reason for this phenomenon. Western views of masculinity and femininity are exported to the rest of the world and shape Asian views of what is attractive in men and women.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_blepharoplasty

1: http://i.imgur.com/9Trha.jpg

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#57

Post by potatolicious »

w1ntermute wrote: post #51
potatolicious wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, but believe it or not it's slowly but surely changing. On the bright side, "Asian male" in the USA may mean a severe handicap (order of magnitude really) in the dating arena vs. "white male", but it's also a tremendous advantage over "black male", "hispanic male", and "south asian male". All in all as an east Asian, not complaining too much. It could be much, much worse.

> it's also a tremendous advantage over "black male", "hispanic male", and "south asian male". Are you joking? I don't know about Hispanic or South Asian, but white girls love black guys.

I'm talking about the dating scene, not the hookup scene - OKCupid's own data bears it out, black males get by far the least interest out of any race group.

East Asians are stereotyped as effeminate and geeky. Blacks are stereotyped as criminals and deadbeats. World of difference really.

They can have the better odds in a club - with my condolences. It's the least they could get for the raw-ass deal they have in every other corner of life.

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#58

Post by chrischen »

w1ntermute wrote: post #56
chrischen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Koreaboo thing largely supports my culture argument for what determines sexual desirability. While most Asian men don't look exactly like those two guys, they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity. I'm sure most white guys in Asia don't look like George Clooney or Brad Pitt either. I also want to point out that the West exports mor…

> they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity. I wouldn't say that's true. Rain is a (famous) exception in this regard, but most Korean entertainers get blepharoplasty[0], a surgery that makes Asian eyes look more Western. Moreover, why is it that Korean popular culture has succeeded in such a big way in the West when Japan did not in the 70s/8…

I think the double eyelid thing is pretty minor (with respect to looking Western). I know a lot of Asian people who naturally have this. You definitely don't just start looking white just by having double-eyelids. If it were Western looks influencing double eyelids, are guys also going blonde/brunette or doing anything else? http://media.carbonated.tv/51637_story__cruisehaircut3.jpg In fact I honestly think (with enough grooming and styling) you can get more fit Asian guys looking like those two examples you gave than you could get white guys to look like them. So just because of that, it's probably benefitting Asian guys more that they're being flaunted as sexy.

As for Japan, they didn't have a well-developed live-action film industry (not sure of the reason why), which according to what I read on Wikipedia, is why they developed a big Anime industry. I'd imagine cartoons would have a harder time to catch on in the West with adults, but it did catch on with kids (Digimon, Pokémon, Yu-Gi-Oh).

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#59

Post by w1ntermute »

chrischen wrote: post #58
w1ntermute wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they certainly are repping the more Asian traits as they do not resemble the traditional Western style of masculinity. I wouldn't say that's true. Rain is a (famous) exception in this regard, but most Korean entertainers get blepharoplasty[0], a surgery that makes Asian eyes look more Western. Moreover, why is it that Korean popular culture has succeeded in such a big way in the West when Japan did not in the 70s/8…

I think the double eyelid thing is pretty minor (with respect to looking Western). I know a lot of Asian people who naturally have this. You definitely don't just start looking white just by having double-eyelids. If it were Western looks influencing double eyelids, are guys also going blonde/brunette or doing anything else? http://media.carbonated.tv/51637_story__cruisehaircut3.jpg In fact I honestly think (with eno…

> If it were Western looks influencing double eyelids, are guys also going blonde/brunette or doing anything else?

Absolutely, dyed hair is almost universally present amongst celebrities. Usually brown or red, but sometimes blonde.

You'll also see other surgically obtained Western facial features, such as a more elongated face and larger noses, in Korean celebrities. I'm not a facial structure expert so I can't scientifically enunciate it, but they don't look anything like your average Korean. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if they're modifying their foreheads too, to look like Tom Cruise in that picture you linked.

> In fact I honestly think (with enough grooming and styling) you can get more fit Asian guys looking like those two examples you gave than you could get white guys to look like them.

Oh, of course. No matter what you do, you'll never truly bridge the gap between races.

A good recent example of this is Cloud Atlas, which has drawn a lot of controversy for one of its story arcs, which is set in a futuristic "Neo-Seoul". Whereas the female actresses are Asian (Bae Doona of Korea and Zhou Xun of China), they used "yellow-face" to make male white actors look Asian, instead of using Asian actors.[0] Predictably, it's not at all a convincing makeover and has drawn harsh criticism from Asian American advocacy groups for the continued discrimination against/marginalization of Asian men by Hollywood.

> So just because of that, it's probably benefitting Asian guys more that they're being flaunted as sexy.

Right, and that's definitely the case. If you look at the expat blogosphere for Korea, what was dominated by men a few years ago is now dominated by women who write about their fairytale romances in Korea (no idea how true a lot of it is, but there you go)[1]. Either way, that's still a very small percentage of a very small percentage (remember that women like to blog about dating a lot more than men). And I'm just saying that obtaining Western features played a big role in the hallyu spreading to the West.

> As for Japan, they didn't have a well-developed live-action film industry

This is not exactly true. A lot of foreigners think that Japanese adults all read manga and watch anime, and while it is common to see salarymen reading manga on the train, its certainly not a widespread pastime the way that TV is in the West.

Japan does have a live-action film industry, but it's pretty shitty. The production values aren't nearly as high as in Korea (the sets look grungy, the background music isn't as good), the actors/actresses don't use as much plastic surgery/makeup, and they're not going for international appeal. Not to mention the acting/writing is even worse than in K-dramas, if you can believe that.

0: http://nerdreactor.com/2012/10/26/cloud-atlas-gets-heat-for-...

1: http://imnopicasso.blogspot.com/2010/10/myth-part-iv-awakeni...

Re: Rise of the Tiger Nation: Asian-American Success

#60

Post by meanJim »

charlesju wrote: post #15
colmvp wrote: post #3

'Success' As an Asian male, even though I might be highly educated, make a comfortable amount of money, own properties, be a productive citizen (blah blah blah), nothing softens the blow of hearing women (both Asian and non-Asian) saying they'd never date an Asian guy or saying Asian guys aren't attractive. Or seeing advertisements/movies that always show mixed couples as White male - Asian female. Or watching 21st c…

Do not let those that you cannot be with, blind you from those that you can.

This is the best thing that has been said this entire thread.

I was born in Beijing, moved here when I was 2, grew up with white friends, dated white girls, a lot of what you cannot do is all in your head. Have confidence with who you are, and what you can offer to a relationship.

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