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I Don't Like Magic

adactio.com

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Re: I Don't Like Magic

#51

Post by mberning »

mgaunard wrote: post #33
SirMaster wrote: post #31

So you don’t like compilers? Or do you really full understand how they are working? How they are transforming your logic and your asynchronous code into machine code etc.

I think most traditional software engineers do indeed understand what transformations compilers do.

They also realize that adding two integers in a higher level language could look quite different when compiled depending on the target hardware, but they still understand what is happening. Contrast that with your average llm user asking it to write a parser or http client from scratch. They have no idea how either of those things work nor do they have any chance at all of constructing one on their own.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#52

Post by monkpit »

sodapopcan wrote: post #14
vladms wrote: post #11

The advantage of frameworks is to have a "common language" to achieve some goals together with a team. A good framework hides some of the stupid mistakes you would do when you would try to develop that "language" from scratch. When you do a project from scratch, if you work enough on it, you end up wishing you would have started differently and you refactor pieces of it. While using a framework I sometimes have momen…

The problem with this is that it means you have to read guides which it seems no one wants to do. It drives me nuts. But ya, I hate when people say they don't like "magic." It's not magic, it's programming.

Magic refers to specific techniques used in programming, an people generally dislike these techniques once they have formed any opinion.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#53

Post by fragmede »

mgaunard wrote: post #33
SirMaster wrote: post #31

So you don’t like compilers? Or do you really full understand how they are working? How they are transforming your logic and your asynchronous code into machine code etc.

I think most traditional software engineers do indeed understand what transformations compilers do.

Not in any great detail. Gold vs ld isn't something I bet most programmers know rigorously, and thats fine! Compilers aren't deterministic, but we don't care because they're deterministic enough. Debian started a reproducible computing project in 2013 and, thirteen years later, we can maybe have that happen if you set everything up juuuuuust right.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#54

Post by insin »

Klonoar wrote: post #48

I feel like a lot of the comments here are from people who either weren't around for, or didn't grow up in, the era where adactio and the wider web dev scene (Zeldman, etc) were the driving force of things on the web. If you've only been in a world with React & co, you will probably have a more difficult time understanding the point they're contrasting against. (I'm not even saying that they're right)

I was around for that era (I may have made an involuntary noise when Zeldman once posted something nice about a thing I made), but being averse to "abstraction in general" is a completely alien concept to me as a software developer.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#55

Post by fragmede »

yellowapple wrote: post #34
socalgal2 wrote: post #17

You could walk through the framework so you then understand it. There are several "let's create react from scratch" articles https://pomb.us/build-your-own-react/ Certain frameworks were so useful they arguably caused an explosion the productivity. Rails seems like one. React might be too.

Thanks to that page letting me see how many dozens of lines of code React needs to do the equivalent of const element = document.createElement("h1"); element.innerHTML = "Hello"; element.setAttribute("title", "foo"); const container = document.getElementById("root"); container.appendChild(element); I now have even less interest in ever touching a React codebase, and will henceforth consider the usage of React a code…

Given the verbosity of Java's hello world vs Python's, you'd walk away with the conclusion that Java should never be used for anything, but that would be a mistake.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#56

Post by fragmede »

WJW wrote: post #22
sodapopcan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is that it means you have to read guides which it seems no one wants to do. It drives me nuts. But ya, I hate when people say they don't like "magic." It's not magic, it's programming.

Oh no! Reading! Sorry for the snark but why is this such a problem?

Because people won't do it.

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#57

Post by fragmede »

UncleMeat wrote: post #41
mgaunard wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most traditional software engineers do indeed understand what transformations compilers do.

I'd wager a lot of money that the huge majority of software engineers are not aware of almost any transformations that an optimizing compiler does. Especially after decades of growth in languages where most of the optimization is done in JIT rather than a traditional compilation process. The big thing here is that the transformations maintain the clearly and rigorously defined semantics such that even if an engineer…

They can't! They can fairly safely assume that the binary corresponds correctly to the C++ they've written, but they can't actually claim anything about about the output other than "it compiles".

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#58

Post by ZeWaka »

fragmede wrote: post #55
yellowapple wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks to that page letting me see how many dozens of lines of code React needs to do the equivalent of const element = document.createElement("h1"); element.innerHTML = "Hello"; element.setAttribute("title", "foo"); const container = document.getElementById("root"); container.appendChild(element); I now have even less interest in ever touching a React codebase, and will henceforth consider the usage of React a code…

Given the verbosity of Java's hello world vs Python's, you'd walk away with the conclusion that Java should never be used for anything, but that would be a mistake.

Clearly Java only belongs on things like credit cards and Minecraft /s

Re: I Don't Like Magic

#59

Post by xp84 »

socalgal2 wrote: post #17

You could walk through the framework so you then understand it. There are several "let's create react from scratch" articles https://pomb.us/build-your-own-react/ Certain frameworks were so useful they arguably caused an explosion the productivity. Rails seems like one. React might be too.

Thanks for this! I've mostly avoided getting too into React and its ilk, mainly because I hate how bloated the actual code generated by that kind of application tends to be. But also I am enjoying going through this. If I can complete it, I think I will be more informed about how React really works.
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