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A Programmer's Loss of Identity

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Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#51
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being able to code doesn't make you better than the "plebs" who are creating massive value with a vibe coded tool. > [...] I noticed AI could really code better than me [...] AI code output is generally considered mediocre (in the sense of "on the median"). If it codes better than you, it might be that your code output is generally below average. Might it be the case that you don't grasp how good one can get with c…

Notice how I said "coding", not "programming". Coding to me is "should I do an early return or use an if/else? Should I extract that variable into a function to make it cleaner?". It's about focusing on the trivialities that come with insisting on meticulously hand typing and reviewing every line instead of focusing on software quality, design and user needs.

Soooo many times in my career I've had to come back and "extract that variable into a function" that I just do it right away by force of habit.

Point is, this isn't trivial, it is the kind of thing that ends up saving work over the long haul.

Or include this in my agent 'rules' files.

GOOD EXAMPLE

query=f""" SELECT foo FROM {sometable} WHERE {condition} """ answer=spark.sql(query).toPandas()

BAD EXAMPLE

answer=spark.sql(f""" SELECT foo FROM {sometable} WHERE {condition} """).toPandas()

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#52
post #5

I can't relate to this anymore and honestly after embracing vibe coding, I'm sick of reading posts like this (and I don't want to personally attack the write who I sympathize with to some degree). Being able to code doesn't make you better than the "plebs" who are creating massive value with a vibe coded tool. I also remember the brief moment of disbelief when I noticed AI could really code better than me, until I re…

Along with value, an amature non-developer can create liabilities and technical debt if they decide to distribute something that "works." When reviewing hundreds of printed pages of LLM generated software architecture and code from ChatGPT generated in the business sphere of an org, it remains the programmer's job to advise and lead.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#53
The adoption of, or adherence to an "identity" is a very western habit. The thought that you or your value derives from a mental construct or external idea.

It's limiting and dangerous. Limiting because you're relying on a relatively small network in the brain, governed almost entirely by your conscious ideas to provide a set of features of who you are. And dangerous because if something else comes up, if you discover something new about yourself, you change, or your circumstances, or the world around you changes and it affects one of your "identities" - that alteration can leave you lost. As the author seems to be saying.

Instead of these quips of, "you need to know who you are", "who are you?", "know yourself" - we should rather be trying, continually, in a never ending process, to discover ourselves.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#54

> Which is to say that the pleasure I get from programming is mostly about learning the underlying truths about computation and applying what I’ve learned. Always improving the craft. This, to me, is the practice of programming. I guess when you get to a certain age (I'm 45) I stop caring whether something like this has social value. I enjoy it anyways. Wanting to know how things work always brings me back. I don't c…

> when it was seen as low-status profession in the late 80s.

I don't remember this at all. I became a professional programmer in 1987, but perhaps it was the fact that I went directly to Unix, did not pass go, did not collect $200 and worked entirely on systems programming that helped skip any of the "low-status" of people doing RDBMS/forms work ?

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#55
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or literally a part of the self, which is what the OP was getting at I think. And there is plenty of that in the software world. "I'm a Rubyist", "I'm a Pythonista", "A rustacean" and so on. There is plenty of identity ridiculousness. I've been a C programmer but I've also been a basic programmer an assembly language programmer, a PHP programmer, a FORTH programmer and a whole list of others. To me that collapses to…

> "I'm a Rubyist", "I'm a Pythonista", "A rustacean" it suddenly struck me that there has never, AFAIK, a single-word noun for a C++ programmer. not sure what, if anything, this implies.

“I’m a null pointer exception debugger.”

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#56
My advice: Upgrade yourself from programmer to engineer, including the learning that involves.

I now enjoy going between software and hardware/EE/mech, between writing code and CAD, between bits and metal working, between creating structures both virtual and physical, and bringing an engineering mindset to it all. There's still a lot of creative outlets out there, and a lot of community.

Aim high and grow your identity!

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many of us, we took those jobs because they aligned with our existing identities... we went into coding jobs because we enjoyed coding. Unfortunately, most of the jobs (and the industry as a whole) evolved into something else that was all about money and growth and image, and not at all about the craft of programming or the creative nature it provided.

> evolved into something else that was all about money and growth and image I feel like this happened long before LLMs became a thing

For sure. "I hear coding makes money" is the Bootcamp era.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#58

I don't know, perhaps we really shouldn't treat our jobs as our identities at the first place?

Anything you do for 40 hours a week is going to be a part of your identity.

Technically true, but I've never heard people in customer service talk about their identity like this. For sure it could just be that I don't know enough of them in real life and they don't blog though.

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#59
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or literally a part of the self, which is what the OP was getting at I think. And there is plenty of that in the software world. "I'm a Rubyist", "I'm a Pythonista", "A rustacean" and so on. There is plenty of identity ridiculousness. I've been a C programmer but I've also been a basic programmer an assembly language programmer, a PHP programmer, a FORTH programmer and a whole list of others. To me that collapses to…

> "I'm a Rubyist", "I'm a Pythonista", "A rustacean" it suddenly struck me that there has never, AFAIK, a single-word noun for a C++ programmer. not sure what, if anything, this implies.

I feel like it implies "it's harder to make a word out of 'C++' than it is for things that already naturally evolved as words people say like 'Ruby', 'Python', or 'Rust'".

Re: A Programmer's Loss of Identity

#60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It kind of depends on where in the globe one is, many countries see programmers as a white collar job that happens to be better paid than a plain secretary, a mere transition phase into management, that is the success story for most families, the programmer turned boss. So those of us that fight against becoming managers, it was for love of programming and the related technical details, as it usually comes with a pay…

> So those of us that fight against becoming managers, it was for love of programming and the related technical details, as it usually comes with a payment and career ceiling. I think quite a lot of these programmers don't fight against becoming a manager, but it's rather that they don't have traits (character traits, demeanour, low on dark triad traits (it is known that the selection process and work reality for man…

In many career paths, after senior developer there are only management roles.

Doesn't matter what traits they have, the only way up, to get that raise, additional benefits, or not being thrown into some improvement program is to accept becoming a manager in one of its various forms, or go elsewhere where hopefully there is a more sane career path.

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