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11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

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Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#51

Post by laurencerowe »

maccard wrote: post #12

I’m an Irish citizen who lives in the UK. I’m entitled to vote for the upper house in Ireland (Seanad) and in both Uk and Scottish general elections due to our “special arrangement”. I have no plans to apply for citizenship, nor to leave the UK. Honestly, it’s an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do and I think of it every time I vote. I am an ardent supporter of free movement of people. I genuinely think tha…

The UK is quite liberal with who can vote in general elections allowing both Commonwealth as well as Irish citizens living in the UK). I don't think there's any harm to it and it seems unavoidable given our history. It would certainly be untenable to disallow those who do not identify as British living in Northern Ireland from voting in UK general elections.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#52

Post by mrweasel »

croisillon wrote: post #40
mrweasel wrote: post #22

Note that they can vote in local election (municipal and regional) and for the EU parliament, the article does mention this, but it is a bit hidden. I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type. It seems unfair to let the large number of other European living in the UK have influence on whether or not the UK was to stay, as they are still guests. Same for government…

we are guests but when we donate blood they strangely don't offer to send the blood to our origin coutry? when we pay taxes they strangely don't offer to let us off? so are we just guests or are we part of the nation too?

It's a challenge for sure. The problem is that some EU countries aren't that big, and moving the government in one direction or another is entirely possible if you can just move a small amount of people to that country, which they are free to do. E.g. moving 50.000 Hungarians to a Nordic or Baltic country can change governments.

If we assume the best, there should not be a problem in letting people vote for the government in the country their reside, if we assume the worst, it's a massive problem.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#53

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

Hamuko wrote: post #35
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans are increasingly associating with Europe over an individual country. US citizens have been doing this for a long time. They are citizens of the US before the state they reside in.

Where is this data from?

EUROSTAT. They are running regular surveys. From when they stated to today, the affiliation with Europe went up. Some somewhat recent data is here: https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2971

Given the dramatic amount of in EU migration that is not too surprising.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#54

Post by deanc »

dotancohen wrote: post #39
deanc wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why citizens and not permanent residents?

For the same reason that married couples enjoy privileges that dating couples do not. The long term commitment and investment in a partner indicate and confer interest in long term stability and development.

So a permanent resident who has lived in a country, for say, 10 years? You don't think they're committed at that point and should have a right to vote on the society they are contributing to?

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#55

Post by chebureki »

mhitza wrote: post #46
watwut wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also, people like blog author - foreigners with work visa. There are plenty of those, they pay taxes and they dont vote.

Correction though, she's not a foreigner with a work visa, but an EU citizen living in another EU country.

She is still a foreigner. Just because it is relatively seamless to work in another country, it doesn't mean you are a citizen.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#56

Post by jplaz »

usrnm wrote: post #36
jplaz wrote: post #4

Puerto Rico pays taxes to the U.S. government, yet its residents cannot vote in federal elections. Additionally, the Jones Act increases costs even more than on the mainland.

Maybe they just need some tea and throw a party, if you know what I mean

Let's call it the San Juan Tea Party, lol

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#57

Post by Hamuko »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #53
Hamuko wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is this data from?

EUROSTAT. They are running regular surveys. From when they stated to today, the affiliation with Europe went up. Some somewhat recent data is here: https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2971 Given the dramatic amount of in EU migration that is not too surprising.

This data seems to suggest something completely different than that people are associating as citizens of EU instead of citizens of their respective countries.

93% of respondents are correct in that you become an EU citizen automatically by living in an EU country, and 87% "feel" that they're EU citizens.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#58

Post by repelsteeltje »

jeroenhd wrote: post #48

If you're not a citizen, you can't vote for the national government. The solution: become a citizen. If you've lived somewhere long enough to lose track of your home country (legally at least), getting citizenship shouldn't be all that hard. The voting pass handed to the author to vote on someone else's behalf clearly states the requirements. A Dutch passport, ID, or driver's license is required. Polling booths are r…

> Polling booths are run by volunteers and they have hard enough of a time already checking the validity of Dutch ID, adding 27 other forms of ID will only make it easier to bypass the electoral protections we have.

Not sure about this one. For municipal elections in the Netherlands, you need to live in a particular municipal to vote. That means: even non-eu expats are eligible. I have had colleagues with UK, US and Turkish passports that voted (or could have voted) in Amsterdam for local representatives.

Re: 11.8M EU citizens pay taxes to governments they cannot vote for

#60

Post by chebureki »

deanc wrote: post #11

This really resonates with me. I have lived in Finland for 16 years and struggled with work-life balance whilst trying to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world. Unless you pass the language exam you can't apply for citizenship - no matter how long you've been here for. And yet, the right-wing-ish coalition government is making hostile anti-immigration policies and increasing citizenship requirements…

Why shouldn't knowing a national language be a requirement for naturalization? After all, politics is generally conducted in (a) national language(s).
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