Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

blog.codinghorror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 77 posts

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#51

Post by renewiltord »

hmry wrote: post #45
wang_li wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feb 1: receive monthly UBI payment Feb 2: spend all of it on strippers/drugs/alcohol/twinkies/etc. Feb 3: I'm hungry. Unless you are prepared to let the idiots starve to death, UBI will never work.

Feb 1: receive monthly paycheck Feb 2: spend all of it on strippers/drugs/alcohol/twinkies/etc. Feb 3: I'm hungry. Unless you are prepared to let the wagies starve to death, wages will never work. Or to put it in less sarcastic terms: Why would UBI payments be more likely to be squandered than any other monthly payments? Especially by people who can't afford food without it. Are there any studies that show such behav…

I suppose the difference is that we have a means-tested program which the wagies can fall into. Was the proposal to have a UBI with a means-tested program behind it? I thought most UBI proponents count on turning off the means-tested program in order to fund the UBI program.

At $1k/month for 340m people, we will double social welfare spending per capita if we don't turn off the existing programs. That will put the US at the tippy-top of per-capita spending above even Luxembourg. Fascinating.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#52

Post by bombcar »

ranprieur wrote: post #19

This is better than nothing, but the big advantage of the UBI is that there is no bureaucracy deciding who gets it and doesn't get it. If there are any conditions on the income, then there's a constant danger that the program will become another tool of control.

If you have a requirement that the UBI be for citizens only, or for residents only, you've already introduced bureaucracy.

(Amusingly enough the earned income credit is NOT GMI but it kind of almost is in some cases ...)

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#53

Post by bombcar »

hirpslop wrote: post #41

American government cash transfers overwhelmingly skew rural with the caveat that income maintenance is a smaller slice of the pie. This report illustrates rural cash transfers beautifully: https://eig.org/great-transfermation/

Part of this is causal - if you're on what used to be called "fixed income" (read: social security) you migrate to places where your costs are lower; which is often rural areas.

Another part is that they're looking at total income over county-levels, which means that one Bill Gates or Elon Musk in your county will wipe out millions of people receiving "transfer payments".

> In contrast, many metropolitan hubs, affluent suburbs and exurbs, and high-income, high-productivity farming and mining communities remain minimally reliant on transfer income to power their local economies.

This may or may not be true; depends on the money flow, rich cities can have large swaths of poor people.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#54

Post by hmry »

renewiltord wrote: post #51
hmry wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feb 1: receive monthly paycheck Feb 2: spend all of it on strippers/drugs/alcohol/twinkies/etc. Feb 3: I'm hungry. Unless you are prepared to let the wagies starve to death, wages will never work. Or to put it in less sarcastic terms: Why would UBI payments be more likely to be squandered than any other monthly payments? Especially by people who can't afford food without it. Are there any studies that show such behav…

I suppose the difference is that we have a means-tested program which the wagies can fall into. Was the proposal to have a UBI with a means-tested program behind it? I thought most UBI proponents count on turning off the means-tested program in order to fund the UBI program. At $1k/month for 340m people, we will double social welfare spending per capita if we don't turn off the existing programs. That will put the US…

Hmm, means-tested program behind UBI would mean you get more money if UBI is not enough, right? I have heard some arguments in favor of that, for example for disabled people. You are right that those programs need to be a lot smaller and simpler to be worth the bureaucracy. But I doubt "I spent it all on prostitutes" would qualify you for that.

Other UBI advocates don't want any additional program like that. I think healthcare would need to change a lot to make that viable.

Or if you mean spending restrictions like those that exist for food stamps, then yeah, UBI usually means getting rid of those. So the argument there would be "people who are on food stamps instead of a job are idiots (sic) / too irresponsible to spend it wisely, so we must control what they spend it on", which is one of the foundational ideas that UBI advocates disagree with.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#55

Post by bombcar »

jmathai wrote: post #23

> all we want to do is advance the concept of direct cash transfer I love the simplicity of this. I've been thinking a lot about generosity myself. And while I don't have $100m, our family also has everything we need. What ideas, resources and tools are there for folks like me who want to be as generous as possible with what we have? To start, I've set up a Donor Advised Fund because I learned that it's a great way t…

Local is often the best way, especially if you don't have resources that would overwhelm them (donating $1 billion to a local food pantry would likely blow it up).

But get involved personally; attend meetings, talk to people in the community, get to know what is being done and by whom, and places where some money goes a long way will start to become clear. In my experience the all-volunteer places are often way underfunded and don't really know what they're doing beyond helping people; if you can help guide them it can be incredibly valuable.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#56

Post by bombcar »

rightlane wrote: post #42

This honestly rubs me the wrong way. I have very close friends who mightily struggle financially but they are always just outside the threshold for assistance. Basic statistics don't capture the people who are barely making it or living on debt. The appeal to me of UBI was always that it was highlighting that everyone needs their basic needs met. The moderately paid worker barely making rent in SF needs the money as…

It sounds harsh and mean, but banning unsecured credit cards outright would probably help tons of people in the long run.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#57

Post by bombcar »

evanjrowley wrote: post #10
Sparkle-san wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not rural Americans? When helping someone in my community, I don't first stop and analyze whether my time/money could be better allocated to maximize some sort of utilitarian loss function, I help them because they're there, need my help, and I'm able to help.

I don't disagree with you, but there is value in considering how money could be best put to use for the common good. One perspective overlooked here is the purchasing power of non-Americans (i.e., not U.S. citizens). Dollars in developing countries can be worth multiple times what they are in the United States. For example, you could help 5000 rural Vietnamese for every 1000 rural Americans. There is also a higher po…

We also have the reality that "American charity" has done horrible things to poorer nations - shiploads of free American clothing has decimated African textile industries, boatloads of free American food has destroyed entire nation's ability to feed themselves.

The further away you are from the recipient the harder it is to see the second and third order effects. Local and small means they can be noticed, and things modified to change the outcomes.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#58

Post by codinghorror »

hmry wrote: post #45
wang_li wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feb 1: receive monthly UBI payment Feb 2: spend all of it on strippers/drugs/alcohol/twinkies/etc. Feb 3: I'm hungry. Unless you are prepared to let the idiots starve to death, UBI will never work.

Feb 1: receive monthly paycheck Feb 2: spend all of it on strippers/drugs/alcohol/twinkies/etc. Feb 3: I'm hungry. Unless you are prepared to let the wagies starve to death, wages will never work. Or to put it in less sarcastic terms: Why would UBI payments be more likely to be squandered than any other monthly payments? Especially by people who can't afford food without it. Are there any studies that show such behav…

well, none of the study data actually supports these claims, for one thing. Take a look. https://rgmii.org/gmi-study-analysis/

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#59

Post by codinghorror »

bombcar wrote: post #55
jmathai wrote: post #23

> all we want to do is advance the concept of direct cash transfer I love the simplicity of this. I've been thinking a lot about generosity myself. And while I don't have $100m, our family also has everything we need. What ideas, resources and tools are there for folks like me who want to be as generous as possible with what we have? To start, I've set up a Donor Advised Fund because I learned that it's a great way t…

Local is often the best way, especially if you don't have resources that would overwhelm them (donating $1 billion to a local food pantry would likely blow it up). But get involved personally; attend meetings, talk to people in the community, get to know what is being done and by whom, and places where some money goes a long way will start to become clear. In my experience the all-volunteer places are often way under…

100% do things locally. If there is a food bank in your area, support it heavily. That's the absolute base of the hierarchy of needs. For example, in that blog post, expand the immediate donations. Note $100k to Alameda Food Bank, where my partner Betsy regularly volunteers.

Re: Launching the Rural Guaranteed Minimum Income Initiative

#60

Post by codinghorror »

rightlane wrote: post #42

This honestly rubs me the wrong way. I have very close friends who mightily struggle financially but they are always just outside the threshold for assistance. Basic statistics don't capture the people who are barely making it or living on debt. The appeal to me of UBI was always that it was highlighting that everyone needs their basic needs met. The moderately paid worker barely making rent in SF needs the money as…

it's "yes, and". Help those people who are selling their blood to buy happy meals first. I am not exaggerating. I wish I was. Check out the book "$2.00 a day: Living On Almost Nothing in America" for so much evidence. Disclaimer: I know the author now. Because I have to. It's related to the work we're doing. https://www.google.com/search?q=%242+a+day%3A+living+on+almo...

Beyond that, maybe SF really is too expensive a place to live in.

Post reply on HN