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My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

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Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#51

Post by emodendroket »

3rodents wrote: post #34
reenorap wrote: post #18

I and many of my friends have used ChatGPT extremely effectively to diagnose medical issues. In fact, I would say that ChatGPT is better than most doctors because most doctors don't actually listen to you. ChatGPT took the time to ask me questions and based on my answers, narrowed down a particularly scary diagnosis and gave excellent instructions on how to get to a local hospital in a foreign country, what to ask fo…

I agree that absolute deference to doctors is a mistake and that individuals should be encouraged to advocate for themselves (and doctors should be receptive to it) but I'm not so convinced in this specific case. Why do high blood sugar levels matter? Are there side effects associated with the alternative treatment? Has ChatGPT actually helped you in a meaningful way, or has the doctor's eventual relenting made you f…

I know what you mean and I would certainly not want to blindly "trust" AI chatbots with any kind of medical plan. But they are very helpful at giving you some threads to pull on for researching. I do think they tend a little toward giving you potentially catastrophic, worst-case possibilities, but that's a known effect from when people were using Google and WebMD as well.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#52

Post by yunohn »

3rodents wrote: post #49
yunohn wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do high blood sugar levels matter? Are you asking why a side effect that is actually an entire health problem on its own, is a problem? Especially when there is a replacement that doesn’t cause it?

Side effects do not exist in isolation. High blood sugar is not a problem if it is solving a much bigger health issue, or is a lesser side effect than something more serious. If medication A causes high blood sugar but medication B has a chance of causing blood clots, medication A is an obvious choice. If a patient gets it in their head that their high blood sugar is a problem to solve, ChatGPT is going to reinforce…

Look, anyone can argue hypotheticals. But if one reads the comment being discussed, it can be deduced that your proposed hypotheses are not applicable, and that the doctor actually acknowledged the side effect and changed medications leading to relief. Now, if the new medication has a more serious side effect, the doctor (or ChatGPT) should mention and/or monitor for it, but the parent has not stated that is the case (yet). As such, we do not need to invent any scenarios.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#53

Post by gaoshan »

reenorap wrote: post #18

I and many of my friends have used ChatGPT extremely effectively to diagnose medical issues. In fact, I would say that ChatGPT is better than most doctors because most doctors don't actually listen to you. ChatGPT took the time to ask me questions and based on my answers, narrowed down a particularly scary diagnosis and gave excellent instructions on how to get to a local hospital in a foreign country, what to ask fo…

ChatGPT helped me understand a problem with my stomach that multiple doctors and numerous tests have not been able to shed any effective light on. Essentially I plugged in all of the data I could from my own observations of my issue over a 35 year period. It settled on these 3 possibilities: "Functional Dyspepsia with slow gastric accommodation, Mild delayed gastric emptying (even subclinical), Visceral hypersensitivity (your nerves fire pain signals when stretched)" and suggested a number of strategies to help with this. I implemented many of them and my stomach pain has been non-existent for months now... longer than I have ever been pain free.

I feel like the difference is that doctors took what I told them and only partially listened. They never took it especially seriously and just went straight to standard tests and treatments (scopes, biopsies and various stomach acid impacting medications). ChatGPT took some of what I said and actually considered it, discounting some things and digging into others (I said that bitter beer helped... doctor laughed at that, ChatGPT said that the alcohol probably did not help but that the bittering agent might and it was correct). ChatGPT got me somewhere better than where I was previously... something no doctor was able to do.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#54

Post by thewebguyd »

avree wrote: post #28
reenorap wrote: post #18

I and many of my friends have used ChatGPT extremely effectively to diagnose medical issues. In fact, I would say that ChatGPT is better than most doctors because most doctors don't actually listen to you. ChatGPT took the time to ask me questions and based on my answers, narrowed down a particularly scary diagnosis and gave excellent instructions on how to get to a local hospital in a foreign country, what to ask fo…

No, no, no. You can change your doctor, and get one that listens to you - you can't change the fact that ChatGPT has no skin in the game - no reputation, no hippocratic oath, no fiscal/legal responsibility. Some people have had miracles with Facebook groups, or WebMD, but that doesn't change where the role of a doctor is or mean that you should be using those things for medical advice as opposed to something that all…

> no reputation, no hippocratic oath, no fiscal/legal responsibility.

To say nothing of giving your personal health information over to a private company with no requirement to practice HIPAA, and just recently got subpoenaed for all chat records. Not to mention potential future government requests, NSA letters, during an administration that has a health secretary openly talking about rounding up mentally ill people and putting them in work camps.

Maybe LLMs have use here, but we absolutely should not be encouraging folks to plug information into public chatbots that they do not control and do not run locally.

It is a recipe for disaster.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#55

Post by derefr »

avree wrote: post #28
reenorap wrote: post #18

I and many of my friends have used ChatGPT extremely effectively to diagnose medical issues. In fact, I would say that ChatGPT is better than most doctors because most doctors don't actually listen to you. ChatGPT took the time to ask me questions and based on my answers, narrowed down a particularly scary diagnosis and gave excellent instructions on how to get to a local hospital in a foreign country, what to ask fo…

No, no, no. You can change your doctor, and get one that listens to you - you can't change the fact that ChatGPT has no skin in the game - no reputation, no hippocratic oath, no fiscal/legal responsibility. Some people have had miracles with Facebook groups, or WebMD, but that doesn't change where the role of a doctor is or mean that you should be using those things for medical advice as opposed to something that all…

In countries with public healthcare + doctor shortages (e.g. Canada), good luck even getting a family doctor, let alone having a request to switch you family doctor "when you already have one!" get taken seriously.

Everyone I know just goes to walk-in clinics / urgent-care centres. And neither of those options give doctors any "skin in the game." Or any opportunities for follow-up. Or any ongoing context for evaluating treatment outcomes of chronic conditions, with metrics measured across yearly checkups. Or the "treatment workflow state" required to ever prescribe anything that's not a first-line treatment for a disease. Or, for that matter, the willingness to believe you when you say that your throat infection is not in fact viral, because you've had symptoms continuously for four months already, and this was just the first time you had enough time and energy to wake up at 6AM so you could wait out in front of the clinic at 7:30AM before the "first-come-first-served" clinic fills up its entire patient queue for the day.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#56

Post by thewebguyd »

HPsquared wrote: post #29
kingstnap wrote: post #12

> she said she was aware that DeepSeek had given her contradictory advice. She understood that chatbots were trained on data from across the internet, she told me, and did not represent an absolute truth or superhuman authority With highly lucid people like the author's mom I'm not too worried about Dr. Deepseek. I'm actually incredibly bullish on the fact that AI models are, as the article describes, superhumanly em…

If the computer is the bicycle of the mind, GenAI is a motor vehicle. Very powerful and transformative, but it's also possible to get into trouble.

A stark difference with that analogy is that with a bicycle, the human is still doing quite a bit of work themselves. The bicycle amplifies the human effort, whereas with a motor vehicle, the vehicle replaces the human effort entirely.

No strong opinion on if that's good or bad long term, as humans have been outsourcing portions of their thinking for a really long time, but it's interesting to think about.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#57

Post by 3rodents »

yunohn wrote: post #52
3rodents wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Side effects do not exist in isolation. High blood sugar is not a problem if it is solving a much bigger health issue, or is a lesser side effect than something more serious. If medication A causes high blood sugar but medication B has a chance of causing blood clots, medication A is an obvious choice. If a patient gets it in their head that their high blood sugar is a problem to solve, ChatGPT is going to reinforce…

Look, anyone can argue hypotheticals. But if one reads the comment being discussed, it can be deduced that your proposed hypotheses are not applicable, and that the doctor actually acknowledged the side effect and changed medications leading to relief. Now, if the new medication has a more serious side effect, the doctor (or ChatGPT) should mention and/or monitor for it, but the parent has not stated that is the case…

The comment being discussed advocates for people to use ChatGPT and push their doctor to follow its recommendations. Even if we assume the OP is an average representation of people in their life, that means half of the people they are recommending ChatGPT to for medical advice are not going to be interrogating the information it provides.

A lazy doctor combined with a patient that lacks a clear understanding of how ChatGPT works and how to use it effectively could have disastrous results. A lazy doctor following the established advice for a condition by prescribing a medication that causes high blood sugar is orders of magnitude less dangerous than a lazy doctor who gives in to a crackpot medical plan that the patient has come up with using ChatGPT without the rigour described by the comment we are discussing.

Spend any amount of time around people with chronic health conditions (online or offline) and you'll realise just how much damage could be done by encouraging them to use ChatGPT. Not because they are idiots but because they are desperate.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#58

Post by tgtweak »

Much like talking to your doctor - you need to ask/prompt the right questions. I've seen chatgpt and gemini make one false assumption that was never mentioned and run with it and continue referencing it down the line as if it were fact... That can be extremely dangerous if you don't know enough to ask it to reframe or verify, or correct it's assumption.

If you are using it like a tool to review/analyze or simplify something - ie explain risk stratification for a particular cancer variant and what is taken into account, or ask it to provide probabilities and ranges for survival based on age/medical history, it's usually on the money.

Every other caveat mentioned here is valid, and it's valid for many domains not just medical.

I did get hemotologist/oncologist level advice out of chatgpt 4o based on labs, pcr tests and symptoms - and those turned out to be 100% true based on how things panned out in the months that followed and ultimately the treatment that was given. Doctors do not like to tell you the good and the bad candidly - it's always "we'll see what the next test says but things look positive" and "it could be as soon as 1 week or as long as several months depending on what we find" when they know full well you're in there for 2 months at minimum you're a miracle case. Only once cornered or prompted will they give you a larger view of the big picture. The same is true for most professional fields.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#59

Post by Izikiel43 »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #36
reenorap wrote: post #18

I and many of my friends have used ChatGPT extremely effectively to diagnose medical issues. In fact, I would say that ChatGPT is better than most doctors because most doctors don't actually listen to you. ChatGPT took the time to ask me questions and based on my answers, narrowed down a particularly scary diagnosis and gave excellent instructions on how to get to a local hospital in a foreign country, what to ask fo…

I don't know if I could trust AI for big things, but I had nagging wrist pain for like a year, any time I extended my wrist (like while doing a pushup). It wasn't excruciating but it certainly wasn't pleasant, and it stopped me from doing certain activities (like pushups) I visited my GP, 2 wrist specialists, and physical therapist to help deal with it. I had multiple x rays and an MRI done. Steroid injection done. A…

I was having wrist pain from using the mouse, and switched to a trackball, issue solved, if the wrist doesn't move/flex, it doesn't get strained, therefore no pain.

The only thing that moves is my thumb, and it's much better for flexing than the wrist, also it has a tiny load to manage vs the wrist.

Re: My Mom and Dr. DeepSeek (2025)

#60

Post by stronglikedan »

adzm wrote: post #20

Considering how difficult it is to get patients to talk to doctors, using AI can be a great way to get some suggestions and insight _and then present that to your actual doctor_

Patients talking to doctors is the easy part. Doctors actually listening to anything they don't already think is nearly impossible.
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