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Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#51

Post by sensecall »

jen20 wrote: post #34
sensecall wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

That is indeed ludicrous - I bet the same does not apply to your returned information either.

Correct. Obligation is on the individual to prove receipt by the Police (in the event they claim you didn't respond).

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#52

Post by dm319 »

philwelch wrote: post #16
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

That’s a horrible system. Britain used to be famous for the professionalism of their police and now they can’t be bothered to make a traffic stop and give people speeding tickets face to face.

Here, you can enjoy them here:

https://youtu.be/u98oi4qThbQ?si=2MQB8dFQ2PXI10Az

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#53

Post by dmix »

AlexandrB wrote: post #3

Given that this is coming out of the UK, I thought it was going to be about some Orwellian request for Tesla to detect speeding and report it to the police. It's actually a much more reasonable situation where Tesla is failing to identify drivers of leased/rented cars and Tesla clearly seems in the wrong. > Tesla offers its vehicles on long-term leases, and in such a scenario the leasing company is typically the regi…

More specifically Tesla basically just paid a small set of automated speeding camera fines on behalf of their leasing customers, which include some glorified late charges because they didn't reply promptly.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#54

Post by skippyboxedhero »

jen20 wrote: post #36
stronglikedan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this: > automated enforcement of minor driving infractions Would not have prevented this: > someone speeding through a red light It's the think-of-the-children fallacy

Except, it does. People worried about getting a fine will not chance a light on yellow. This is patently obvious for anyone that has ever driven in London (where I learned to drive). Anyone that doesn't care about the fine (perhaps in a stolen car) may still do it, but they'd do it regardless.

Ah yes, the risk of small fines that is why people won't do dangerous things. Have we tried a £50 fine for murder?

Economist brain.

The problem is very simple: driving tests aren't hard enough, too many people have driving licences, and we don't retest people. In addition, enforcement of people driving without a licence is completely pathetic (as anyone who has driven in the UK can attest to, the stuff I have seen over the past few years is insane...obviously there is an underlying cause but if you see a clapped out hatchback, Just Eats bag in the front seat, P plates on the car, you know to steer well clear...as if the multiple dents on the car already didn't give it away).

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#55

Post by rob74 »

doublerabbit wrote: post #38
sensecall wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

My father worked on the early 90's contract that implemented the speed camera's on the motorway. The future road map was to make these digitally automated. Dark Fibre was laid but the plans were scrapped as the government saw it as a waste of money. This is why we are stuck with the ludicrous system. For a long while if you were changing lanes while speeding through the camera it couldn't capture the plate. Again the…

I'm not sure what the technology by which the data from the speed camera is downloaded has to do with identifying the driver?

The reason for this "ludicrous" procedure is that the police can identify the owner of the car (based on the license plate), but not the driver, so the owner has to say who was driving. And all of this has to be done in a way that will hold up in court, therefore snail mail. The same procedure exists in Germany (of course, the bureaucracy here has its ludicrous sides too) and I bet in other countries as well.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#56

Post by paganel »

sensecall wrote: post #30
londons_explore wrote: post #7

For context for international readers, the UK has a lot of speed cameras and other automated ways to give out fines. These get sent by snailmail to the 'owner'[simplification] of the vehicle using a government database. The owner must then, within a deadline, say who was driving the vehicle at that date and time. If the owner fails to say who was driving, they have committed a criminal offence, and will be fined. It…

It's a ludicrous system – I've experienced it first hand. If for some reason the letter isn't delivered (or indeed sent), the original offence is scrapped and a new offence issued for Failure to provide information. Frustratingly, there is no obligation on the Police to provide proof of posting, and per the law, it is deemed received once sent. Try proving you didn't receive something...

It's ludicrous that the British put up with those laws, at some point they have to assume responsibility.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#57

Post by EmptyCoffeeCup »

dmix wrote: post #53
AlexandrB wrote: post #3

Given that this is coming out of the UK, I thought it was going to be about some Orwellian request for Tesla to detect speeding and report it to the police. It's actually a much more reasonable situation where Tesla is failing to identify drivers of leased/rented cars and Tesla clearly seems in the wrong. > Tesla offers its vehicles on long-term leases, and in such a scenario the leasing company is typically the regi…

More specifically Tesla basically just paid a small set of automated speeding camera fines on behalf of their leasing customers, which include some glorified late charges because they didn't reply promptly.

Very happy - the £100 fine isn't the problem, it's the points/day-wasted-on-useless-course that is the real deterrent to speeding.

And before people say "think of the children" and "I learned something I should have already known on the course" - Speed limits are increasingly being changed for political reasons: Safety has nothing to do with it, therefore, these arguments no longer stand (my local authority is determined to make cars as slow as buses, and is more than happy to "set aside" any suggestions that they do not do this).

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#58

Post by [deleted] »

josephcsible wrote: post #43
watwut wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing unprofessional about it. Austria and German have cameras and send the ticket to the owner of the car - based on the plates. There is no reason to insist this must be face to face thing.

This story is exactly the reason to insist that: cars can be driven by people other than their owners.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#59

Post by jen20 »

skippyboxedhero wrote: post #54
jen20 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, it does. People worried about getting a fine will not chance a light on yellow. This is patently obvious for anyone that has ever driven in London (where I learned to drive). Anyone that doesn't care about the fine (perhaps in a stolen car) may still do it, but they'd do it regardless.

Ah yes, the risk of small fines that is why people won't do dangerous things. Have we tried a £50 fine for murder? Economist brain. The problem is very simple: driving tests aren't hard enough, too many people have driving licences, and we don't retest people. In addition, enforcement of people driving without a licence is completely pathetic (as anyone who has driven in the UK can attest to, the stuff I have seen ov…

Automatic enforcement of dumb low level stuff is supposed to free up police time for the more serious things. Whether that happens or not is a political decision. I remember the time before red light cameras in London, and the time afterwards, and the situation was much improved after they showed up.

I agree the driving test is too easy (though several orders of magnitude more difficult than in the US states I've had to do one in), and there is too little enforcement of otherwise dangerous behaviour.

Re: Tesla fined for repeatedly failing to help UK police over driving offences

#60

Post by jaennaet »

rob74 wrote: post #55
doublerabbit wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My father worked on the early 90's contract that implemented the speed camera's on the motorway. The future road map was to make these digitally automated. Dark Fibre was laid but the plans were scrapped as the government saw it as a waste of money. This is why we are stuck with the ludicrous system. For a long while if you were changing lanes while speeding through the camera it couldn't capture the plate. Again the…

I'm not sure what the technology by which the data from the speed camera is downloaded has to do with identifying the driver? The reason for this "ludicrous" procedure is that the police can identify the owner of the car (based on the license plate), but not the driver , so the owner has to say who was driving. And all of this has to be done in a way that will hold up in court, therefore snail mail. The same procedur…

In Finland automatic camera fines (they're not exactly fines but I have no idea how to translate "liikennevirhemaksu" so work with me here) are the problem of whoever owns the car. If the owner wasn't the one driving the car, then it's up to them to inform the police who was actually driving
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