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SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

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Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eject mass in the forward direction of its current tangent of motion. Slow down to go down.

So, for this they have a bit of expendable extra mass on board? What material is it, would it not cause even more debris then?

The 'expendable mass' is almost never a solid or liquid. It's the gaseous combustion exhaust or plasma exhaust from the satellite's thrusters. The advantage of gases is that they just expand and disperse fast enough to be too wispy to cause anything on impact.

However, there are a few systems that do use solid masses for obtaining a reaction force. A remarkable example is called a 'Yo-yo despinner' [1]. It was used in missions like Phoenix (Mars mission) and Dawn (Asteroid belt proto-planet mission). And yes, it does create space debris. But those space debris are probably somewhere in orbit around the sun. Nothing that those guys are going to be too worried about.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo-yo_de-spin

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#52
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The periapsis will always pass through where the collision happened. To circularize at a higher orbit you would need secondary collisions on the other side of the earth.

You're right that all the fragments will pass roughly through the impact point in orbit. But it's not always the periapsis. 1. The normal or anti-normal delta-v imparted by the explosion/fragmentation (i.e, the velocity imparted perpendicular the plane of initial orbit) will cause the orbital plane of the fragment to change. The new orbit will intersect the old orbit at the impact point. Meanwhile, the eccentricity (…

No worries. I think I could have been more precise in my wording. :)

My comment is based on the hunch concerning physical calculations and interactions from an engineering physics degree and way to many hours in kerbal space program a decade ago.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#53
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need 10k missiles. You need just one to blow up all of starlink satellites. This is like bowling, you hit one, it hits the other one etcétéras.

You would likely need at least one per orbital plane, of which there are about 24.

Blowing up something in the same orbit as the targets isn't an effective strategy. The explosion disperses the fragments into different orbits that intersect the original orbit only at one or two points. And even if some of those fragments find their targets, the collision velocity will be low (relatively slow).

It will be like getting hit with with shrapnels from a grenade. Depending on how they collide, the target may survive. If you think that grenade shrapnels are fast, you need to understand the 'hypervelocity impact' that happens when objects in different orbits collide, or when an interceptor hits a satellite. Hypervelocity impacts are impacts where the impactor moves faster than the speed of sound in the solid target. What that means in practice is that the debris/interceptor may have hit one end of the satellite and vaporized already, while the other end of the satellite doesn't yet feel the shock and vibration from that impact. That end doesn't yet know about the carnage that's about to hit it in a few milliseconds.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#54
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two objects colliding can send debris into different orbits. Combined kinetic energy and mass differences can send debris to many different orbits. A golf ball hitting a bowling ball or basketball, both traveling at 30 units of speed can produce quite a fast golf ball. Not all of the debris will safely burn up.

The periapsis will always pass through where the collision happened. To circularize at a higher orbit you would need secondary collisions on the other side of the earth.

Solar pressure would be a small factor too, though I assume it's not a big deal compared with orbital speeds.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#55
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The periapsis will always pass through where the collision happened. To circularize at a higher orbit you would need secondary collisions on the other side of the earth.

You're right that all the fragments will pass roughly through the impact point in orbit. But it's not always the periapsis. 1. The normal or anti-normal delta-v imparted by the explosion/fragmentation (i.e, the velocity imparted perpendicular the plane of initial orbit) will cause the orbital plane of the fragment to change. The new orbit will intersect the old orbit at the impact point. Meanwhile, the eccentricity (…

>But it's not always the periapsis.

>But since the impact point isn't guaranteed to be the periapsis or apoapsis, the above mentioned diametrically-opposing point also cannot be guaranteed to be an apsis.

You're correct on the generalized case of the math here, no argument at all, but this also feels like it's getting a bit away from the specialized sub-case under discussion here: that of an existing functional LEO satellite getting hit by debris. Those aren't in wildly eccentric orbits but rather station-kept pretty circular ones (probably not perfectly of course but +/- a fraction of a percent isn't significant here). So by definition the high and low points are the same and which means we can say that the new low point of generated debris in eccentric orbits will be at worst no lower then the current orbit of the satellite (short of a second collision higher up, the probability of which is dramatically lower). All possible impact points on the path of a circular orbit are ~the same. And in turn if the satellite is at a point low enough to have significant atmospheric drag the debris will as well which is the goal.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#56
post #20

I think it's important to note that not all collisions are equally dangerous. Consider a sat on a polar orbit colliding with one on a equatorial orbit. Or two satellites on different directions. That is going to be spectacular. Otoh, these kind of collisions are unlikely and should be manageable by just assigning certain shells (say 5km) for every possible direction and orientation. If two Starlink satellites collide…

Not quite how it works, unfortunately.

Once you've got even hundreds of satellites in non-equatorial orbits, trying to provide global coverage - their ground tracks very frequently cross each other. Even if they're all at the same orbital inclination. While those mostly won't be 90 degree crossings - the great majority will involve several km/s relative velocity. And you'd run out of (say) 5km LEO shells very quickly.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#58
post #40

Can anyone explain how does one technically lower a satellite?

Let me see if I can. Before we go to space, let's try something on the ground. Imagine pitching a ball horizontally. What do you expect if you pitch it too slow? The ball will curve more towards the ground and meet it early, won't it? (In other words, it doesn't go very far and doesn't stay airborne for long). Going from ground to space, this action remains the same. You need to 'lower an orbit'? Reduce its forward velocity. It will curve more towards the planet and reach closer to the ground.

However, there is a bit more detail involved here. Why doesn't the satellite just fall to the Earth? (Please excuse me and disregard this part if you know this already. I'm trying to maintain conceptual continuity.) So, when something is flying horizontally (no aerodynamic forces), we know that its trajectory will curve towards the Earth due to the pull of gravity. If the ground (on Earth) curves as fast as, or even faster than the trajectory's curve, the object will never get an opportunity to even reach the ground. This is 'orbiting'.

Now assume that the satellite is initially in a circular orbit. The gravitational force acting on the satellite at any point in the orbit is perpendicular to the satellite's velocity vector and tangential to the orbit. The satellite will maintain a constant speed at this point, since its velocity and the force are always perpendicular [1]. So, what happens when we reduce the satellite's forward velocity? Just as we've seen with the ball, the satellite's trajectory (orbit) starts to curve more towards Earth. Now a subtle, but important change occurs. The velocity and the gravitational pull are no longer perpendicular! They start to align! And when that happens, the speed MUST increase. So, the satellite is now losing altitude and speeding up simultaneously [2]. At some point, the satellite will pick up enough speed again to 'straighten its curve' and avoid falling to the ground. In effect, the satellite had to compensate for the lost velocity in order to remain in orbit, and it did so by exchanging some of its altitude (gravitational potential energy) for velocity (kinetic energy) [3].

So our satellite 'fell' from where we slowed it down, until it had enough velocity again to maintain orbit. At that point, the gravity and the velocity are parallel again, since it will keep falling otherwise [4]. But since it 'fell from a higher altitude', it's speed is now too high for it to remain at that altitude. The orbital curvature is a bit 'too straight' now and it starts to curve away from Earth. So now we're in the exact opposite situation of what was explained in the last paragraph. The satellite is now climbing back up again! As it happens, the satellite actually climbs back up to the point where we slowed it down! And when at that point, its velocity is exactly the same as what it was, after we had slowed it down! [5] So the satellite did the inverse of what it did earlier - it exchanged kinetic energy to get back its altitude (potential energy). The satellite is now living in cycles juggling kinetic energy and potential energy back and forth. The final effect is that the point in orbit that's diametrically opposite to where you slowed it down, is now at a lower altitude. And thus you've effectively 'reduced the orbit'!

One more detail to pin down. How do we slow down a satellite in the first place? Easy! Push the satellite in the opposite direction of its velocity [6]. This is called 'retrograde thrusting' or 'retro burn'. But that's about as easy as it gets. Remember that unlike on Earth, you don't have a surface (a wall or the ground) to lean against. Imagine pushing something heavy on an ice rink. The good news is that you can still push things on an ice rink. The only catch is that the push force will set both the item and you in motion in opposite directions [7]. And that's exactly what we do in space. We throw out mass from the satellite in the form of super-fast gaseous of plasma exhaust. The key is to throw out the mass with as much momentum as possible. But the mass is limited by how much you can carry - it's a depleting resource. So you're basically left figuring out how to throw it out with ever increasing speeds. And that's how we slow down the satellite in space - fire your thrusters!

And finally to lower an orbit entirely, instead of just one point on it, you have to do multiple firings. There are bunch of these 'orbital maneuvers'. The most common one is the Hohmann Transfer [8]. If you could understand what's given above, most orbital maneuvers including Hohmann Transfer will feel very intuitive to you.

[1] Speed is the magnitude of velocity and it remains steady in a circular orbit. However, the perpendicular force will keep bending the velocity vector, thus constantly changing its direction.

[2] This is the from-the-first-principles explanation of conservation of angular momentum. This is how the ballerina spins faster by pulling in her arms.

[3] If this sounds like a 'negative feedback' phenomenon to you, that's because it is. Feedback is a mathematical construct. Nobody ever said that a feedback mechanism must be implemented separately. Some systems have them inherently built-in.

[4] This is the lowest point of the orbit - the periapsis.

[5] Yes. There is quite a bit of hand waving here. I didn't explain why the satellite went back to its original position with the exact same speed. But that's what actually happens. It might take a lot more 'mathematical sense' to explain just using words. One thing I know is that this has something to do with the fact that the gravitational field is one of those 'conservative fields'. If you take a trip inside a conservative field, and return to the location where you started, you will be left with the exact same (kinetic) energy as you started with. You may exchange your energy during the trip, but you always regain it back when you get back to the starting point, no matter what path you took. As far as I understand, the 'conservative' part refers to the part that the energy is conserved and stored, and never lost. Unfortunately, the force field that we're most familiar with - frictional force - isn't conservative at all. If you're going on a trip, be ready to spend some energy!

[6] One matter that confuses a lot of people is why the satellite's position changed at the opposite side of the orbit, instead of the point where we applied the force. The answer is in the Newton's second law. Force changes momentum, not position - at least not directly. The direct effect of application of retro thrust is that the velocity reduces at that point. The change of position on the other side of the orbit is only a consequence of that velocity change.

[7] Yes, the Newton's vengeance law.

[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohmann_transfer_orbit

[9] Every so often, someone comes along and argues that gravity is not a real force and all these explanations are wrong. If you want to deal with this in terms of relativity and space time curvature, be my guest. But for all practical purposes, the old faithful Newtonian physics works just fine, even as a special case of relativity.

[10] This should probably have been a blog post. Please don't shout at me if it annoys you. This is one of my favorite subjects and I just got carried away. I used to teach and train many students and junior professionals in these topics.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#59
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that all the fragments will pass roughly through the impact point in orbit. But it's not always the periapsis. 1. The normal or anti-normal delta-v imparted by the explosion/fragmentation (i.e, the velocity imparted perpendicular the plane of initial orbit) will cause the orbital plane of the fragment to change. The new orbit will intersect the old orbit at the impact point. Meanwhile, the eccentricity (…

No worries. I think I could have been more precise in my wording. :) My comment is based on the hunch concerning physical calculations and interactions from an engineering physics degree and way to many hours in kerbal space program a decade ago.

Thanks! I figured that you had a reasonable understanding in this subject. But I still couldn't help just laying it out. I have some background too - as a professional.

Re: SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake

#60
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interstellar internet ???

If you smash up your router, your router does not magically get better, it simply fails to provide any internet. The same happens with orbiting routers, e.g. Starlink satellites.

and we would fix that shit, you acting like its impossible problem
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