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RCS for Business

developers.google.com

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Re: RCS for Business

#51

Post by jeroenhd »

cyberax wrote: post #32
jeroenhd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trying to build your own is explicitly blocked Google doesn't offer an RCS API, but making your own API is not blocked, especially not on phones running MicroG. For standard ROMs, RCS apps are not feasible because carriers expect interaction with the SIM module, and only privileged apps can do that. Google Messages blocks root access (probably because the RCS spec says they have to if they ever implement the money…

> LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/, and all the others could build their own RCS client And it will be useless. They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS or to Google's RCS. A user with an official Android phone will be able to reach you only over regular SMS. The way RCS works, the mobile _operator_ uses your corresponder's phone number to look up their RCS server. So that's also why RCS connectiv…

> They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS

And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do. If your operator doesn't peer with other operators then you'll have the same issues getting any kind of multimedia delivered from phone to phone.

> It is. The Google's RCS endpoint requires attestation that is available through Play API only.

Annoying, though hardly unexpected at this point. Still, that only poses a problem for Google's RCS servers, not for RCS itself.

Re: RCS for Business

#52

Post by jeroenhd »

dfajgljsldkjag wrote: post #34
jeroenhd wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> trying to build your own is explicitly blocked Google doesn't offer an RCS API, but making your own API is not blocked, especially not on phones running MicroG. For standard ROMs, RCS apps are not feasible because carriers expect interaction with the SIM module, and only privileged apps can do that. Google Messages blocks root access (probably because the RCS spec says they have to if they ever implement the money…

> They may not be able to register with Google, but they can make an RCS app nonetheless. They can make a "standards compliant" RCS which will be able to connect to literally zero carriers or servers on the planet. In fact Google Messages "RCS" doesn't even implement the RCS standard. They use a proprietary protobuf api exclusive to Google. Google messages can't connect to any "RCS" servers except Google's. > Twilio…

> They can make a "standards compliant" RCS which will be able to connect to literally zero carriers or servers on the planet.

I call bullshit. If iPhones can connect to RCS, so can other phones.

Their app does use a weird protobuf spec of their own design, but that's for synchronising messages across devices/their web UI. RCS doesn't really do multi-device the same way iMessage does so they had to add another layer. That's not part of RCS.

Re: RCS for Business

#53

Post by notRobot »

jjtech wrote: post #41
dfajgljsldkjag wrote: post #7

It's unfortunate that RCS is basically a de-facto Google walled garden in most countries. On android you can only use RCS in the Google Messages app and trying to build your own is explicitly blocked. [1] And of course the bonus that rooted devices are banned from RCS. All the propaganda Google spread to get Apple onboard (only with Google's blessing of course, Google could kick apple off if they wanted) was such a b…

Unfortunately, I think what a lot of people don't know is that RCS actually has "client authenticity verification"[1]... the RCS server has to actively approve any attempts for a client to connect, if it's Android/iOS/etc. There are no standards for how this should be implemented, Google uses Play Integrity and Apple uses App Attest at the current moment, with explicit proprietary support by the Jibe servers. It's ba…

> never going to be able to get App Attest/Play Integrity verification without relying on a jailbreak/vulnerability.

Even with jailbreak/rooting, hardware attestation is nearly impossible to spoof.

Re: RCS for Business

#54

Post by Elfener »

the_arun wrote: post #46
akersten wrote: post #45

Perfect I can't wait for the deluge of spam texts with real clickable buttons to trick me instead of just a 320x320 picture of one. Let's see, RCS: * needlessly complicated protocol, such that only a behemoth such as Google could administrate it * Intensely leans on device attestation to even let you on to the network * Tenfold the multimedia touchpoints as MMS, correspondingly it will have 10x the zero days * Certai…

What is the difference between RCS & Whatsapp messages? Aren't they similar?

When you use Whatsapp, you're trusting a single entity to handle your messages (plus your ISP I guess). When you use RCS, your messages go through your mobile operator, google, and perhaps someone else in an overly complicated way that is also built upon SMS (a non-internet thing) for more confusion.

Re: RCS for Business

#55

Post by zinekeller »

dfajgljsldkjag wrote: post #37
zinekeller wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Providers can either host themselves Outside of China, it is de facto a Google thing due to Jibe not really in mood to interconnect with others, plus the fact that Google actually shoehorns RCS in countries where they think they can get away with it. Your statement "iPhone depends on the provider so has less coverage" basically bares this one. Two example: 1. Japan has already a different provider-supported thing +…

> plus the fact that Google actually shoehorns RCS in countries where they think they can get away with it. This is the real thing that nails down "RCS" as a totally google thing. Google will forcefully enable RCS for people on carriers that want nothing to do with it. And in that case Google controls the entire process every single step of the way.

Just for the record, I am not necessarily disagreeing with "let's replace SMS", but Google can do it via a value-added service, which is much less regulated in most countries. Heck, Google already had it with Hangouts, and in my personal opinion it was just plain better than with Messenger. It was technically inferior with Whatsapp having E2E, but some people do prefer having a portable archive of their messages stored and access (much to the chagrin of cryptographers). However, killing it, resurrecting its corpse, and doing it again - well, it will not fare as everyone outside of Google predicted. Ron Amadeo had written a great piece about this in Ars Technica in 2021 (A decade and a half of instability: The history of Google messaging apps https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/08/a-decade-and-a-half-...)

Messing with what is supposed to be a carrier standard, as I already think what is happening, puts Google to (in my opinion) a legally unreasonable position in some countries, and I won't be shocked it it will be treated as a carrier with licenses et al. (or rather, lack of licenses, which is just plain bad for Google). I won't be surprised if it turned out that many Googlers already knew that this is a bad idea legal-wise, but the higher-ups have approved this shoehorning.

Re: RCS for Business

#56

Post by hocuspocus »

jeroenhd wrote: post #52
dfajgljsldkjag wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They may not be able to register with Google, but they can make an RCS app nonetheless. They can make a "standards compliant" RCS which will be able to connect to literally zero carriers or servers on the planet. In fact Google Messages "RCS" doesn't even implement the RCS standard. They use a proprietary protobuf api exclusive to Google. Google messages can't connect to any "RCS" servers except Google's. > Twilio…

> They can make a "standards compliant" RCS which will be able to connect to literally zero carriers or servers on the planet. I call bullshit. If iPhones can connect to RCS, so can other phones. Their app does use a weird protobuf spec of their own design, but that's for synchronising messages across devices/their web UI. RCS doesn't really do multi-device the same way iMessage does so they had to add another layer.…

The iOS client sends an app attestation token during registration.

Jibe could let any compliant client connect doesn't mean it does in practice. Case in point: Harmony OS.

Re: RCS for Business

#57

Post by hocuspocus »

jeroenhd wrote: post #51
cyberax wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/, and all the others could build their own RCS client And it will be useless. They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS or to Google's RCS. A user with an official Android phone will be able to reach you only over regular SMS. The way RCS works, the mobile _operator_ uses your corresponder's phone number to look up their RCS server. So that's also why RCS connectiv…

> They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do. If your operator doesn't peer with other operators then you'll have the same issues getting any kind of multimedia delivered from phone to phone. > It is. The Google's RCS endpoint requires attestation that is available through Play API only. Anno…

Global RCS == Jibe.

Google killed off all interconnected hubs.

Re: RCS for Business

#58

Post by cyberax »

jeroenhd wrote: post #51
cyberax wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LineageOS, GrapheneOS, /e/, and all the others could build their own RCS client And it will be useless. They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS or to Google's RCS. A user with an official Android phone will be able to reach you only over regular SMS. The way RCS works, the mobile _operator_ uses your corresponder's phone number to look up their RCS server. So that's also why RCS connectiv…

> They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do. If your operator doesn't peer with other operators then you'll have the same issues getting any kind of multimedia delivered from phone to phone. > It is. The Google's RCS endpoint requires attestation that is available through Play API only. Anno…

> And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do.

Correct. And it took more than a decade to get MMSC interoperability. It's still not perfect even now.

And mobile network operators were incentivized to enable MMSC peering because it was typically a pay-per-message service with hefty fees.

> Annoying, though hardly unexpected at this point. Still, that only poses a problem for Google's RCS servers, not for RCS itself.

That's a distinction without difference in the US.

Re: RCS for Business

#59

Post by joshstrange »

RCS is such trash. It's amazing that people fell for Google's BS in pushing Apple to implement it. I imagine that in the near future I will just disable it on my phone if I start getting spam. I push all my Android friends to use other messaging platforms, even with RCS it's a crap-shoot and pictures still come through looking like it's the year 2000.

RCS was a bad idea literally from day 1 and I do not understand why so many people thought it was worth pursuing. I mean other than Google since they effectively own the "standard", finally after untold number of failed messaging projects they have something they strong-armed other idiots into using.

Re: RCS for Business

#60

Post by hocuspocus »

cyberax wrote: post #58
jeroenhd wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They likely won't be able to connect to their mobile network's RCS And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do. If your operator doesn't peer with other operators then you'll have the same issues getting any kind of multimedia delivered from phone to phone. > It is. The Google's RCS endpoint requires attestation that is available through Play API only. Anno…

> And why is that? Assuming your carrier bothers to run RCS, the protocol works just like MMS and SMS do. Correct. And it took more than a decade to get MMSC interoperability. It's still not perfect even now. And mobile network operators were incentivized to enable MMSC peering because it was typically a pay-per-message service with hefty fees. > Annoying, though hardly unexpected at this point. Still, that only pose…

US and about 180 other countries too.

RCS networks outside Jibe:

- China

- South Korea

- Japan with +Message, on its way out for Jibe

- Jio in India (very strange case as Android subscribers can use Google Messages on Jibe)

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