When are we going to start suing these assholes? Why isn't anybody leveraging the legal system? You're all searching for technical solutions to a legal problem and fighting with one hand behind your back.
LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
51–60 of 134 posts
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#52Who are these agressive scrapers run by? It is difficult to figure out the incentives here. Why would anyone want to pull data from LWN (or any other site) at a rate which would cause a DDOS like attack? If I run a big data hungry AI lab consuming training data at 100Gb/s it's much much easier to scrape 10,000 sites at 10Mb/s than DDOS a smaller number of sites with more traffic. Of course the big labs want this data…
[deleted]
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#53the perverse incentive is if you ddos the website such that it shuts down, no other "AI" parasites can get the valuable data big tech incentivised to ddos... what a world they've built
This sounds like a conspiracy theory.
The dead internet theory also sounded unhinged and conspiracy theory-ish a decade or so ago... yet here we are.
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because it started in 2022 and hasn't subsided since? This is just the latest iteration of "AI" scrapers destroying the site, and the worst one yet. https://lwn.net/Articles/1008897 Your nonsense about LWN being a "newsletter" and having "zero valuable data" isn't doing you any favors. It is the prime source of information about Linux kernel development, and Linux development in general. "AI" cancer scraping the same…
> LWN.net is a reader-supported news site I mean... Again, the site is so old that anything worth while is already in cc or any number of crawls. I am not saying they weren't scraped. I'm saying they likely weren't scraped by the bad AI people. And certainly not by AI companies trying to limit others from accessing that data (as the person who I replied to stated).
I’m going to presume good faith rather than trolling. Some questions for you:
1. Coding assistants have emerged as as one of the primary commercial opportunities for AI models. As GP pointed out, LWN is the primary discussion for kernel development. If you were gathering training data for a model, and coding assistance is one of your goals, and you know of a primary sources of open source development expertise, would you:
(a) ignore it because it’s in a quaint old format, or
(b) slurp up as much as you can?
(a) carefully and respectfully leave it be, because you still get benefit from the previous content even though there’s now more and it’s up to date, or
(b) hoover up every last drop because anything you can do to get an edge over your competitors means you get your brief moment of glory in the benchmarks when you release?Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#55I am starting to think these are not just AI scrapers blindly seeking out data. All kinds of FOSS sites including low volume forums and blogs have been under this kind of persistent pressure for a while now. Given the cost involved in maintaining this kind of widespread constant scraping, the economics don’t seem to line up. Surely even big budget projects would adjust their scraping rates based on how many changes t…
How many of these scrapers are written by AI by data-science folks who don't remotely care how often they're hitting the sites, and is data they wouldn't even think to give or ask the LLM about?
But does that explain all of the various scrapers doing the same thing across the same set of sites? And again, the sheer bandwidth and CPU time involved should eventually bother the bean counters.
I did think of a couple of possibilities:
- Someone has a software package or list of sites out there that people are using instead of building their own scrapers, so everyone hits the same targets with the same pattern.
- There are a bunch of companies chasing a (real or hoped for) “scraped data” market, perhaps overseas where overhead is lower, and there’s enough excess AI funding sloshing around that they able to scrape everything mindlessly for now. If this is the case then the problem should fix itself as funding gets tighter.
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#56AI allows companies to resell open source code as if they wrote it themselves doing an end run around all license terms. This is a major problem. Of course they're not going to stop at just code. They need all the rest of it as well.
I worked on an extremely niche project revolving around an old DOS game. Code I worked on is often pretty much the only reference for some things.
It's trivially easy to get claude to scrape that and regurgitate it under any requested licence (some variable names changes, but exactly the same structure - though it got one of the lookup tables wrong, which is one of the few things you could argue aren't copyrighted there).
It'll even cheerfully tell you it's fetching the repository while "thinking". And it's clearly already in the training data - you can get it to detail specifics even disallowing that.
If I referenced copywritten code we didn't have the license for (as is the case for copyleft licenses if you don't follow the restrictions) while employed as a software engineer I'd be fired pretty quick from any corporation. And rightfully so.
People seem to have a strange idea with AI that "copyleft" code is free game to unilaterally re-license. Try doing that with leaked Microsoft code - you're breaking copyright just as much there, but a lot of people seem to perceive it very differently - and not just because of risk of enforcement but in moralizing about it too.
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#57Who are these agressive scrapers run by? It is difficult to figure out the incentives here. Why would anyone want to pull data from LWN (or any other site) at a rate which would cause a DDOS like attack? If I run a big data hungry AI lab consuming training data at 100Gb/s it's much much easier to scrape 10,000 sites at 10Mb/s than DDOS a smaller number of sites with more traffic. Of course the big labs want this data…
I've been asking this for a while, especially as a lot of the early blame went on the big, visible US companies like OpenAI and Anthropic. While their incentives are different from search engines (as someone said early on in this onslaught, "a search engine needs your site to stay up; an AI company doesn't"), that's quite a subtle incentive difference. Just avoiding the blocks that inevitably spring up when you misbehave is a incentive the other way -- and probably the biggest reason robots.txt obedience, delays between accesses, back-off algorithms etc are widespread. We have a culture that conveys all of these approaches, and reciprocality has its part, but I suspect that's part of the encouragement to adopt them. It could that they're just too much of a hurry not to follow the rules, or it could be others hiding behind those bot-names (or others). Unsure.
Anyway, I think the (currently small[1]) but growing problem is going to be individuals using AI agents to access web-pages. I think this falls under the category of the traffic that people are concerned about, even though it's under an individual users' control, and those users are ultimately accessing that information (though perhaps without seeing the ads that pay of it). AI agents are frequently zooming off and collecting hundreds of citations for an individual user, in the time that a user-agent under manual control of a human would click on a few links. Even if those links aren't all accessed, that's going to change the pattern of organic browsing for websites.
Another challenge is that with tools like Claude Cowork, users are increasingly going to be able to create their own, one-off, crawlers. I've had a couple of occasions when I've ended up crafting a crawler to answer a question, and I've had to intervene and explicitly tell Claude to "be polite", before it would build in time-delays and the like (I got temporarily blocked by NASA because I hadn't noticed Claude was hammering a 404 page).
The Web was always designed to be readable by humans and machines, so I don't see a fundamental problem now that end-users have more capability to work with machines to learn what they need. But even if we track down and sucessfully discourage bad actors, we need to work out how to adapt to the changing patterns of how good actors, empowered by better access to computation, can browse the web.
[1] - https://radar.cloudflare.com/ai-insights#ai-bot-crawler-traf...
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#58I am starting to think these are not just AI scrapers blindly seeking out data. All kinds of FOSS sites including low volume forums and blogs have been under this kind of persistent pressure for a while now. Given the cost involved in maintaining this kind of widespread constant scraping, the economics don’t seem to line up. Surely even big budget projects would adjust their scraping rates based on how many changes t…
> I haven’t heard of the same attacks facing (for instance) niche hobby communities. Does anyone know if those sites are facing the same scale of attacks?
Yes. Fortunately if your hobby community is regional you can be fairly blunt in terms of blocks.
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#59Who are these agressive scrapers run by? It is difficult to figure out the incentives here. Why would anyone want to pull data from LWN (or any other site) at a rate which would cause a DDOS like attack? If I run a big data hungry AI lab consuming training data at 100Gb/s it's much much easier to scrape 10,000 sites at 10Mb/s than DDOS a smaller number of sites with more traffic. Of course the big labs want this data…
I've been asking this for a while, especially as a lot of the early blame went on the big, visible US companies like OpenAI and Anthropic. While their incentives are different from search engines (as someone said early on in this onslaught, "a search engine needs your site to stay up; an AI company doesn't"), that's quite a subtle incentive difference. Just avoiding the blocks that inevitably spring up when you misbe…
(and if anyone from Anthropic or OpenAI is reading this: teach your models to be polite when they write crawlers! It's actually an interesting alignment issue that they don't consider the externalities of their actions right now!)
Re: LWN is currently under the heaviest scraper attack seen yet
#60Who are these agressive scrapers run by? It is difficult to figure out the incentives here. Why would anyone want to pull data from LWN (or any other site) at a rate which would cause a DDOS like attack? If I run a big data hungry AI lab consuming training data at 100Gb/s it's much much easier to scrape 10,000 sites at 10Mb/s than DDOS a smaller number of sites with more traffic. Of course the big labs want this data…
I bet some guy just told Claude Code to archive all of LWN for him on a whim.
Some guy doesn't show up with 10k residential IPs. This is deliberate and organized.