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Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

lalitm.com

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Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#51

Post by dzink »

stavros wrote: post #36
dzink wrote: post #13

If one person thinks this way, many more do. This is typical in large organizations, especially government institutions, because expense of running entire teams at massive costs for no reason is not born by the team but by someone with a much larger budget that has more money than care or completely wrong incentives (the more people I manage, the more important I am, type of orgs). This is organizational gangrene des…

Humans think this way. This isn't a cultural thing, it's human nature. We like positive people and dislike negative people. Ignoring the fact that political capital is a thing won't make it go away.

The goal is not to ignore human nature, but to build better tools for orgs to get feedback and act on it before it corrodes them on the inside. Government is the biggest of them all - fix this and maybe you can create government that works for you, instead of blowing taxpayer dollars like a leaky bucket. Humans in an organizations are like cells or organs in a body. Every country, team, and organization iterates on a proper nervous system for their body.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#52

Post by x3n0ph3n3 »

alphazard wrote: post #27

Companies need ways for individuals to bet against projects and people that are likely to fail. So much of the overhead in a large organization is from bad decisions, or people who usually make bad decisions remaining in positions of power. Imagine if instead of having to speak up, and risk political capital, you could simply place a bet, and carry on with your work. Leadership can see that people are betting against…

Allowing people to bet against projects creates some perverse incentives, like encouraging someone to actively sabotage a project. It can create some very toxic conflict within an organization.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#53

Post by raccoonhands »

tyleo wrote: post #2

I disagree, and I think this advice can be actively harmful. You shouldn’t ignore a problem when you’re in a position to help. At the same time, you also shouldn’t take on the emotional burden of other people’s projects. If I see something heading toward failure, I let people know they may want to consider a different approach. That’s it. There’s no need to be harsh or belabor the point but it’s better to speak up th…

you can do your best to play it smart. perhaps following this direct advice isn't wise but something tweaked to your own understnading of it is likely the option. I agree with the post. a way id reword it is "don't get too deep into politics, take a step back instead and assess the trade-offs of being involved or not"

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#54

Post by tyleo »

JohnFen wrote: post #47
dwaltrip wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well has that worked? Has it backfired? I think you both are right in different ways.

> Has it backfired? You weren't asking me, but I'll chime in anyhow. If by "backfire" you mean have I suffered any adverse consequences, then no. Interestingly, in several cases, I've had other engineers talk to me privately to express gratitude that I said something. They had the same concerns as I, but were too afraid to speak up for fear of consequences. My attitude has always been that if I'm being punished for d…

Yeah, I love this take. Very similar for me.

I have encountered people who don’t want to hear advice and repeatedly have a sort of knee-jerk negative reaction. It’s very rare though and I’d leave an org if this was the norm. I can count these people on one hand in my 10-year career.

I’ve also encountered people who have an initial negative reaction but considered the advice over the next few days or weeks and later thanked me.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#55

Post by mystraline »

Ive done exactly this.

Upper management agreed to geoIP blocking of the app, without consulting engineering. Why this matters is that GeoIP blocking is at best a whack-a-mole with constantly updating lists and probabilistic blocklists. And is easy to route around with VPNs.

The verbiage they approved was "geoblocking", not "best effort of geoblocking". Clients expected 100% success rate.

When that didn't work, management had to walk that back. We showed proof of what we did was reasonably doable. That finally taught upper management to at least consult before making grandiouse plans.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#56

Post by [deleted] »

ossa-ma wrote: post #18

Excellent advice for the 'House of Cards' politics of big tech, but it’s essentially corporate pacifism. In any other setting you can't afford to watch money and motivation burn just to stay 'politically solvent'. (Lalit is very good at fitting complex corporate dynamics in a single blog post though.)

[deleted]

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#57

Post by dimator »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

I have to question the judgment of the manager talking shit about another team and its leader to a junior engineer. Going and looking at the author's LinkedIn history (it's available via his About page) makes it pretty clear that this was happening within Google. I think it speaks poorly of their manager's professionalism, and what sort of behavior they consider to be acceptable with regard to colleagues.

What shit did he talk about the team's leader? "That project is going to fail" is talking shit? Nothing could be more objective than that.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#58

Post by nitwit005 »

The problem tends to be timing. By the time you hear about a project, it's often been approved by multiple layers of management, senior engineer signed off on design, etc.

You might be able to get the engineers to tweak the design, but actually getting it canceled can be hopeless. You'll get told the CEO approved it.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#59

Post by t-writescode »

wordsunite wrote: post #50

Definitely a big tech thing I don’t miss. At a startup everyone is trying to make the company succeed vs pet projects, so giving advice about architectural decisions or helping fellow engineers with areas you have more expertise in is often welcomed. There are always pros and cons, but that type of culture is so much more fun. Even on hard days I love working with people who want to help each other.

Even in startups, sometimes you’ve just got to let the consequences of the things you’ve warned about happen.

I’ve lost too much sleep and fought too many battles and lost too much clout over the years trying to make sure bad things didn’t happen. “Nobody could have foreseen this” is still said, even if there’s a ton of evidence, recommendations, pleading, etc, to keep it from happening.

Re: Why senior engineers let bad projects fail

#60

Post by atdt »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #17

I have to question the judgment of the manager talking shit about another team and its leader to a junior engineer. Going and looking at the author's LinkedIn history (it's available via his About page) makes it pretty clear that this was happening within Google. I think it speaks poorly of their manager's professionalism, and what sort of behavior they consider to be acceptable with regard to colleagues.

Having worked with both kinds, I have generally preferred three-dimensional human beings to cut-outs from a compliance training manual. Being fundamentally kind and collaborative is prerequisite, of course. But so is having a modicum of spite, misanthropy, pettiness, irony, and dark humor. An appreciation for the tragic sense of life. How do you get through the day if all you get from your coworkers are patriotic slogans?
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