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Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

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Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#51

Post by robrtsql »

reactordev wrote: post #50
robrtsql wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're _wrong_ for wanting these things, but I think the largest game developers avoid them and provide more "on-rails" experiences for good reasons. The thing you described about events occurring out-of-view reminds me of the "Radiant AI" system which Bethesda promised, and greatly underdelivered, for The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Allegedly the game was going to be full of NPCs with their own wants a…

Dwarf fortress proves you can totally do things off script without player interaction. Poor Ragnar. As for the scale issue with criminality. You are describing exactly what happens when you put people on rails. They all end up in town. At the same time. If a game cluster has a population of 200,000 players monthly - it should have the space for it. No instancing. No sharding (other than maybe regional boundaries). Do…

> They all end up in town. At the same time. ... Don’t spawn everyone at the same starting point at the same time.

I hadn't thought about that. The perspective I am coming from (Runescape, Final Fantasy XIV) has players starting in one (or three) locations when they begin the game.

Thanks for the Ashes of Creation name-drop. I don't know if I'll play it but I'm definitely interested in watching the trajectory of this game.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#52

Post by astrange »

adzm wrote: post #5
WillPostForFood wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Dark Souls is not a fluke, it shows that when executed well (which very may be hard), it is additive. It makes things feel more organic. From article : "Maybe one cave system has a place where it connects to a dungeon, which connects also to a basement in some guy’s house in the middle of nowhere." This just sounds better than having the black and white delineations between spaces. Yes!

> Maybe one cave system has a place where it connects to a dungeon, which connects also to a basement in some guy’s house in the middle of nowhere To an extent, tears of the kingdom really does do this a few places, but not enough. It really is fun finding new holes into the underworld from a cave, and using the caves to get into the shed in that one village or to the tower etc

I was surprised that ToTK was so focused on the underworld. The sky islands are much nicer.

That said, I was also surprised ToTK had the same plot as BotW. Like, Ganon takes over the castle and then they defeat him and then they go into the basement and he's just there and he takes over the castle again?

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#53

Post by LorenPechtel »

jltsiren wrote: post #31
noelwelsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem with the simulation route is that games in the D&D lineage are usually wildly unbalanced. A, say, level 5 monster could run through endless level 1 NPCs. Also, much of the machinery of our world (e.g. commerce) doesn't really work when then there are incredibly dangerous and malevolent critters scattered throughout.

It's more about the combat model. Everyone is a fanatic who fights until death, despite any casualties their friends and allies have suffered. And weapons and other attacks are mostly harmless. They deal limited damage measured in hit points, which does not affect the combat effectiveness of the target, heals quickly, and does not leave any lasting effects. In a different combat model, an equally unbalanced monster w…

Yup. Same reason I feel safe hiking in big cat territory. You look like a large predator. Only things that consider a large predator as possible prey will seek conflict--and most of the US has no such animal.

The cats know they would win, but a predator at our size range might injure them and keep them from getting their next meal. Thus it's virtually certain they will not attack--and the news supports this. People get hurt when the animal feels it needs to defend itself.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#55

Post by btschaegg »

ema wrote: post #35

I think Gothic II did this really well. While there are some clear borders a lot of the transitions between the three categories are gradual and organic. You're mostly safe in the secondary settlements but go too far into someone's backyard and you might suddenly find yourself fighting for your life. It also managed to make the place feel expansive without any place feeling like repetitive filler content.

Came here to comment on Gothic, too. I'd have picked the original Gothic even more as an example, though -- there, you are in a prisoner colony, even if you are in a settlement. Anger the wrong people and you won't survive the experience for most of the game.

Also the swamp camp is really close to some rather deadly creatures if you're not careful in the early game.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#56

Post by esyir »

reactordev wrote: post #6

I want events to occur while I'm down in the dungeon. Maybe a neighboring village got attacked and now it's in ashes and down trodden. Maybe a castle is being besieged. I want a "play your own adventure" where the story just kind of happens. No main plot other than maybe certain events happening at a specific time. Games today are too linear. Even "open world" games. They zone it out so there's a progression, go to t…

I think what my ideal is basically DnD, but with an AI DM.

This is something that I'm hoping the current LLM and future AI work eventually get us to. If we can get persistent context and memory, or at least a simulacrum of that, we could get to truly dynamic reactive worlds

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#57

Post by aezart »

adzm wrote: post #5
WillPostForFood wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Dark Souls is not a fluke, it shows that when executed well (which very may be hard), it is additive. It makes things feel more organic. From article : "Maybe one cave system has a place where it connects to a dungeon, which connects also to a basement in some guy’s house in the middle of nowhere." This just sounds better than having the black and white delineations between spaces. Yes!

> Maybe one cave system has a place where it connects to a dungeon, which connects also to a basement in some guy’s house in the middle of nowhere To an extent, tears of the kingdom really does do this a few places, but not enough. It really is fun finding new holes into the underworld from a cave, and using the caves to get into the shed in that one village or to the tower etc

Something I've occasionally wished for is a classic-style Zelda game[1] where partway through the adventure you discover that all the dungeons are actually adjacent to each other, and you can open up passages connecting them turning it all into one big Metroidvania experience.

[1]: i.e. one with 4-8 dungeons and new navigation/combat tools in each, not a sandbox like BotW

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#58

Post by tstrimple »

reactordev wrote: post #50
robrtsql wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're _wrong_ for wanting these things, but I think the largest game developers avoid them and provide more "on-rails" experiences for good reasons. The thing you described about events occurring out-of-view reminds me of the "Radiant AI" system which Bethesda promised, and greatly underdelivered, for The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Allegedly the game was going to be full of NPCs with their own wants a…

Dwarf fortress proves you can totally do things off script without player interaction. Poor Ragnar. As for the scale issue with criminality. You are describing exactly what happens when you put people on rails. They all end up in town. At the same time. If a game cluster has a population of 200,000 players monthly - it should have the space for it. No instancing. No sharding (other than maybe regional boundaries). Do…

Real cities have redundant opportunities. I live in a city of around 120k people. We have three Walmart's spread across the city and two Target stores. These are just the main big players obviously. There are dozens of smaller stores offering various goods. In game settings there tends to be one primary shop of a type per "area" forcing people to congregate around very specific places. Same with quest givers. There is zero reason for every warrior to have the exact same "warrior mentor/trainer". There could literally be dozens of different warrior trainers spread across the city and you're randomly assigned one of the lower utilization trainers on character creation. You get to know the local shops and resources around your particular trainer before branching out.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#59

Post by tstrimple »

jltsiren wrote: post #31
noelwelsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One problem with the simulation route is that games in the D&D lineage are usually wildly unbalanced. A, say, level 5 monster could run through endless level 1 NPCs. Also, much of the machinery of our world (e.g. commerce) doesn't really work when then there are incredibly dangerous and malevolent critters scattered throughout.

It's more about the combat model. Everyone is a fanatic who fights until death, despite any casualties their friends and allies have suffered. And weapons and other attacks are mostly harmless. They deal limited damage measured in hit points, which does not affect the combat effectiveness of the target, heals quickly, and does not leave any lasting effects. In a different combat model, an equally unbalanced monster w…

This is one of the things I like about Kenshi. Losing a fight doesn't mean you died in a fight necessarily. Sometimes you're just knocked out and the enemy is satisfied and moves on. Sometimes you're just knocked out and made into a slave which gives you another story arch to follow and challenges to overcome.

Re: Outside, Dungeon, Town: Integrating the Three Places in Videogames (2024)

#60

Post by tstrimple »

reactordev wrote: post #6

I want events to occur while I'm down in the dungeon. Maybe a neighboring village got attacked and now it's in ashes and down trodden. Maybe a castle is being besieged. I want a "play your own adventure" where the story just kind of happens. No main plot other than maybe certain events happening at a specific time. Games today are too linear. Even "open world" games. They zone it out so there's a progression, go to t…

I think I turn more to story generators like Rimworld and DF than organic MMO or even basic multi-player these days. Especially in an MMO, there are just so many people whose entire goal is to make your play experience worse. People suck.
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