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Don’t Work for Assholes

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Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#51

Post by joe_adk »

olefoo wrote: post #49
kurtosis wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and trea…

> The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes. So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole? I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.

If no one worked for/hired them, it would raise the cost. Of course, you would have to tell them why you made the decision you did. I think a lot of assholes don't know that they are one. Jeez... I hope I'm not an asshole.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#52

Post by azanar »

brl wrote: post #24
StrawberryFrog wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. A bad first impression is a bad sign. The reverse (A good first impression) is not necessarily the case.

I think you can easily make mistakes judging people in both directions. It's just that making a false negative error (not identifying an asshole) can turn out a lot worse than a false positive (judging somebody as an asshole who really isn't) so it's prudent to be sensitive to bad first impressions.

Agreed. But, for those who might be looking to this thread for advice on how to detect assholes as early as possible, know the difference between prudence and cynicism. Be cautious, but don't start out assuming that someone's good impression is just a facade, otherwise the entire rest of that relationship will be tainted by that.

It also doesn't hurt to go back later and try to understand why you had the gut feeling that the person is an asshole. Knowing what sort of cognitive biases you may have, either from instinct or socialization, will likely help the false positive rate. And the more you are considerate about things, the less you might be likely to come off as a prejudicial asshole to someone else.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#53

Post by azanar »

pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

> The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people.

A couple questions about this:

* Do they offer any advice on how to hone this instinct? I'm assuming they still get false positives; do they know of any traits/behaviors that seem to go either way, and ways to gauge which way those traits are more likely to tend?

* On the same thought as the previous question, do they think their 25 year old selves would've made the right instinctual call in recent encounters they've had? I ask because of the possibility of a hindsight bias. It seems possible that along with learning to trust their instinct more, they've had more data to train their instinct.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#54

Post by chris11 »

derefr wrote: post #36
pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to deal with them again, does it matter?

I think it could work out as long as you know what you are willing to accept. If somebody demands a discount from you, just tell them no. If somebody you up demanding that you drop everything to work on their problem right then, just let them know that you are concerned about their problem, when you except to try and deal with it, and quickly cut the conversation short.

As long as you deal with them in a way that is acceptable to you, you have lost almost nothing selling them a product once if they treat you badly. And you have gained some money, and as PG said if you treat them fairly and very nicely, they might change.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#56

Post by tjmc »

kurtosis wrote: post #6

There are a lot of people who do great work who are complete assholes in person. They didn't get to be great at what they do by being polite or tolerant of crappy work. If they think that you are mediocre or are doing low-quality work they won't hesitate to let you know this. At first, this left me humiliated and angry. Other people lost their motivation and quit. Now I actually respect not having every criticism sug…

So... how long have you been at Apple?

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#57

Post by michaelneale »

walesmd wrote: post #17
josefresco wrote: post #11

I too worked for an asshole, but not in the freelance capacity but as an employee. The worst part was he would recognize that he was an asshole and apologize all the time, only to go back to being an asshole soon after. I always wanted to tell him that recognizing that you're an asshole and not breaking the behavior was worse than someone who's an asshole and doesn't know it.

I am, admittedly, one of those assholes. I don't characterize myself as rude (I keep my mouth closed when I chew, I stay away from others and doorways when I smoke, I hold doors open for people). But, if you get in a conversation with me, I will take control. I tend to talk over people to get my point across (although I don't care whether you agree with me or not, not in an attempt to convince) and I tend to talk to…

Put a mark on your hand, in some way that you glance at it often, and remember to listen. Everyday, keep doing it. Has worked for me for breaking "bad habits".

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#58

Post by ojbyrne »

pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

It seems like its a requirement for C-level positions. There's some research to back up my impression:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#59

Post by netcan »

kurtosis wrote: post #42
pg wrote: post #26

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them. One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you s…

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary." Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and trea…

I think a lot of assholes actually try to create that power balance (or at least the illusion of that situation) in their relationships & make it inot a central issue in the relationship.

Re: Don’t Work for Assholes

#60

Post by enneff »

brl wrote: post #24
StrawberryFrog wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. A bad first impression is a bad sign. The reverse (A good first impression) is not necessarily the case.

I think you can easily make mistakes judging people in both directions. It's just that making a false negative error (not identifying an asshole) can turn out a lot worse than a false positive (judging somebody as an asshole who really isn't) so it's prudent to be sensitive to bad first impressions.

Definitely. My girlfriend made the comment to me a couple of days ago, that she overwhelmingly finds people she initially judges as mean or rude often turn out to be lovely people, and those she initially judges as nice people often turn out to be heavily flawed.

Personally, my snap judgements seem to be pretty reliable. Many times I've taken an instant disliking to someone, while other in the social group found the opposite, when months or years later the person will confirm my suspicions by involving themselves in some big scandal or something.

I think knowing when and when not to trust your intuition is a big part of the intuitive process.

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