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BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

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Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#51

Post by _yb2s »

cookiengineer wrote: post #10

That already is old news, lots of manufacturers do that. For example, the Passat 3B and later platforms introduced proprietary screws for the wheels and brakes, so you weren't able to change them yourself. Same for all kinds of sensors that will go rogue when the car is turned off and you change a sensor on the engine. All firmware gradually was modified each generation to allow less modifications and less self repai…

I think you’re seeing malice where none exists, particularly in those VW examples. VWs have always required a lot of special tools to work on, but usually for good engineering reasons making things smaller, lighter, simpler, and easier to manufacture. They will happily sell the tools to the public, and for most VW models, a few hundred dollars worth of special tools is all you need for any DIY repair- I personally have accumulated pretty much every VW special tool for every model and year, and find the special tools tends to make them easier to work on for a home mechanic- less stripped bolts, etc. than other cars. A 12 point star on a brake caliper is really not a rare tool, and it is so much quicker and easier than trying to fit a huge socket in that awkward space.

If VW had been trying to make the mk3 engines bad for planned obsolescence, then why did the mk4 engines like the ALH TDI and the 1.8T earn reputations as some of the best engines made? VW had quality issues in the 90s that they later attacked and fixed, but it was just sloppy leadership and engineering, not a plan.

What engine exactly are you seeing broken cams on? My guess would be this is not VWs fault but a mechanic failing to keep track of the ordering and orientation of the cam bearing caps and swapping them around- they’re line bored and any modern engine will break the cam if you do this. I’ve seen it on a mk2 GTI.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#52

Post by xienze »

tpm wrote: post #45
blell wrote: post #3

This is outrageous and anti-customer. I’m completely sure the EU will be all over it any day now.

All of that will be accessible for third parties, because afaik it has to be in the EU. The cost is a different question, but I think that's not a surprise for BMW customers.

I don't see how "oh third parties can get a bit for it" is really an acceptable answer. Lightning cables are readily available but that wasn't consumer-friendly enough for the EU. I think the parent is right, let Ford try this and see how quickly the EU goes after them, because this is quite frankly very anti-consumer.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#54

Post by georgefrowny »

markus_zhang wrote: post #28
cookiengineer wrote: post #10

That already is old news, lots of manufacturers do that. For example, the Passat 3B and later platforms introduced proprietary screws for the wheels and brakes, so you weren't able to change them yourself. Same for all kinds of sensors that will go rogue when the car is turned off and you change a sensor on the engine. All firmware gradually was modified each generation to allow less modifications and less self repai…

Guess eventually people will buy the cheapest cars and treat it as a consumer product that breaks down every few years, like a laptop. Or simply find a remote job and rent a car. Welcome to the Dystopian world.

> Guess eventually people will buy the cheapest car

It looks like lots of people choose to lease very expensive cars, and give them back after 3 years for a new one, dropping a obsolescence time-bomb onto the second-hand market and providing a strong signal to manufacturers that there is a substantial maintainability-insensitive market segment.

I am still surprised that no manufacturer has a balls-out "buy our cars, they will NEVER DIE, anyone can service them, and your kids will still be driving them" model, as they might have lower returns from not gouging over subscriptions, planned obsolescence and parts and software lock-in shenanigans, but they'd instantly capture a market segment.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#55

Post by rollcat »

elromulous wrote: post #24

They must have thought it's _so_ clever that the screw/bit is their logo.

Nintendo has done this exact thing with the GameBoy: https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/q/11736

If you mess with the logo, the console locks up during boot. If you don't, you're violating the trademark.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#56

Post by ryeights »

cookiengineer wrote: post #10

That already is old news, lots of manufacturers do that. For example, the Passat 3B and later platforms introduced proprietary screws for the wheels and brakes, so you weren't able to change them yourself. Same for all kinds of sensors that will go rogue when the car is turned off and you change a sensor on the engine. All firmware gradually was modified each generation to allow less modifications and less self repai…

>What do you think happened with the Golf 3 engine design? They made the camshaft structurally weaker, so the engine will blow up more easily.

Wow, talk about an oversimplification. The Mk3 moved from an 8-valve to a 16-valve engine; yes, this adds more valvetrain failure modes but also brings myriad other benefits, increased power, better fuel economy, reduced emissions…

The idea that a carmaker would purposely engineer flaws into core engine components in order to drive future sales doesn’t make much sense.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#57

Post by belorn »

dingdingdang wrote: post #14

Yeah: thanks, that's a clear patent on not having me as a customer then

Like with smart TV with advertisements, the locked down cars will provide revenue after sale for the manufacturer. Thus they will mass produce and sell those cars for a cheaper price, while adding a significant markup on the non-locked down cars to be primarily sold to commercial partners at lower batches. The cheaper mass produced one will significant out compete the other ones to the point where most dealers will no longer sell those more expensive versions. Most customers won't even know the difference when they buy the car, and why should the seller go out of their way to inform the buyer when most people just care about the sticker price anyway.

Having locked down products also allow the manufacturer and dealer to form a agreement of sharing some of the post-sale revenue. The dealer can have their own shops for repair which the customer are now forced to use, naturally at a steep markup, and the manufacturer get a slice for every repair. The cheaper sticker price can then be decreased further since the dealer now have an additional revenue after sale. The customer can go to an other manufacturer approved shop, but then how many of those exists in the same city, and the manufacturer can artificial limit how many shops get approved in the same location.

The story is the same across any number of industries right now. Customer choice is not a argument for the manufacturer to not do it. If you as the customer want to opt out, the only choice after a while will be to not buy a car or buy the expensive ones for double the cost.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#58

Post by criddell »

SanjayMehta wrote: post #37
mwexler wrote: post #29

Watch makers have moved to this model over the last few years as well. The Swatch group has restricted access to movements and parts by acquiring major movement manufacturers, forcing the industry to use duplicate parts, some produced in violation of patents (dep on region). The patents attempt to protect proprietary approaches adding complexity through unique pieces, which rarely add functionality or new value. BTW,…

I have one Swatch automatic which can not be opened or serviced or repaired. Sistem 51. Once you're out of warranty you're done. Meanwhile my dad's 40 year old Swiss automatic has been serviced just 2 times, and the last time was 10 years ago when the integrated bracelet broke.

You probably should be getting the automatic serviced every 10 years. That basically involves cleaning it, replacing the mainspring, and applying new lubricant. If it's a dive watch, they would also replace the gaskets which dry out.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#59

Post by markus_zhang »

georgefrowny wrote: post #54
markus_zhang wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess eventually people will buy the cheapest cars and treat it as a consumer product that breaks down every few years, like a laptop. Or simply find a remote job and rent a car. Welcome to the Dystopian world.

> Guess eventually people will buy the cheapest car It looks like lots of people choose to lease very expensive cars, and give them back after 3 years for a new one, dropping a obsolescence time-bomb onto the second-hand market and providing a strong signal to manufacturers that there is a substantial maintainability-insensitive market segment. I am still surprised that no manufacturer has a balls-out "buy our cars,…

I also advised some Chinese manufacturers to produce cheap, dummy home appliances and then sell to the Western market with a bit of mark-up, as more people are fed up with the smart ones. Not sure anyone is going to try though. Looks like everyone is in the data business.

Re: BMW Patents Proprietary Screws That Only Dealerships Can Remove

#60

Post by Damogran6 »

mwexler wrote: post #29

Watch makers have moved to this model over the last few years as well. The Swatch group has restricted access to movements and parts by acquiring major movement manufacturers, forcing the industry to use duplicate parts, some produced in violation of patents (dep on region). The patents attempt to protect proprietary approaches adding complexity through unique pieces, which rarely add functionality or new value. BTW,…

Having just bought a Mini Cooper, I'm in the initial free-services period of the ownership and honestly, if it's the $10 a month I suspect, I'm okay with it. Primarily for the navigation...it really is superior to the Carplay experience (a square in the middle of the round screen, vs a map that takes up nearly the entirety of the screen...IIRC, traffic, Weather, remote start, and voice control come along for the ride.

I won't pay for 5g (phone does that) or Serius XM (for all the channels, I'm really not jazzed about the offerings)...but $10 for the above features seems reasonable.

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