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Contrails Map

map.contrails.org

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Re: Contrails Map

#51

All I really learned from this is that European skies have a much higher density of flights than the rest of the world. If the future of aviation is similar flight densities everywhere then people might actually begin to care about this topic.

Remember that there are more flights during the day than during the night. When you posted this it was late afternoon in Europe, noon on the East Coast US and early morning on the West Coast. And of course it was night in Asia.

Re: Contrails Map

#52
post #29

It states that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails made of aircraft soot. I’d like to see the literature and discovery of aircraft soot. As an engineer who has built aircraft, I find this fascinating. I would like to measure my amount of soot. How does one go about measuring how much soot I have? Obviously if my exhaust ports are black that’s bad but I’m genuinely curious about this as I’ve always assumed “b…

It does not state that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails. It says half of the climate impact of aviation is from contrails. Soot can have other effects and cause pollution in other ways such as reducing air quality but I suspect that is very minimal compared to other industries. The guide presented by the map gives a very good explanation on how contrail formation can be mitigating by altering the course o…

>The CO2 emitted by aircraft only causes about half the climate impact of aviation. The other half comes from contrails— artificial clouds that are created by soot in the engine exhaust.

Then what does that mean?

I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution?

Or are we saying the unspent fuel particulate inside that they formed around is?

This is where this bizarro science is going off the deep end for me. As any object traveling through the atmosphere at that altitude, disrupting air, is going to form condensation and cloud trails. The more moisture in the atmosphere, the more trails. Sure there’s a little bit of unspent kerosene particles but hardly enough to even be a glycerin on a well working engine.

Are we suggesting changing flight routes and wasting more fuel (which pollutes more) to protect the ground from these 0.0000001% reduction in light cloud trails? Seriously. I want to know the science behind how this plays out.

I’m all for shutting down the black exhaust engines and cleaning up how we produce thrust. I’m all for that. This argument that clouds cause pollution is just wacky.

What about wingtips. Those cause trails (though not as pronounced as the engines turning at 12,000rpm), those contain no particulates and yet, they exist. Atmospheric science can explain a lot of what you see at 30,000ft (10,000m). This all sounds like NIMBY science posturing and pseudo-science to me.

Re: Contrails Map

#53
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not state that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails. It says half of the climate impact of aviation is from contrails. Soot can have other effects and cause pollution in other ways such as reducing air quality but I suspect that is very minimal compared to other industries. The guide presented by the map gives a very good explanation on how contrail formation can be mitigating by altering the course o…

>The CO2 emitted by aircraft only causes about half the climate impact of aviation. The other half comes from contrails— artificial clouds that are created by soot in the engine exhaust. Then what does that mean? I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution? Or are we saying the unspent fuel particulate insid…

> I find it strange. Clouds happen naturally. Contrails are mini clouds (literally a cloud chamber), are we saying that all those “chemtrails” are pollution?

Estimating radiative forcing is about measuring relative to a baseline. Here, the baseline is a world with no contrails. When you introduce contrails, you're introducing cloudy volumes predominantly made of ice crystals and occurring very high in the atmosphere. On the balance, these clouds re-emit more long-wave radiation (e.g. what' emitted by the Earth's surface) than they allow to escape the atmosphere.

Hence, these clouds have a small but positive net radiative forcing - meaning that aviation, by the way it leads to contrail formation, has at least this small radiative forcing on climate.

> As any object traveling through the atmosphere at that altitude, disrupting air, is going to form condensation and cloud trails. The more moisture in the atmosphere, the more trails.

Actually - it won't. We rigorously started studying contrail formation back in WWII when meteorologists tried to anticipate when bomber flights returning from mainland Europe might induce contrails and leave a path for intercept fighters to follow and shoot them down. As the science and understanding of vertical atmosphere thermodynamic structure and cloud microphysical structure has advanced in the ensuing 80 years, we have a much better understanding of when contrails are likely to form, versus when they aren't.

But don't take my word for it. Look up at the sky any time you hear an aircraft - sometimes you'll see a contrail, sometimes you won't. Contrails aren't a given when a jet flies high in the atmosphere.

(that's actually the entire basis for the Contrails/DeepMind team's work - avoid areas where contrails _are_ likely to form, to avoid that radiative forcing from the first part of this comment)

> Are we suggesting changing flight routes and wasting more fuel (which pollutes more) to protect the ground from these 0.0000001% reduction in light cloud trails? Seriously. I want to know the science behind how this plays out.

The science is pretty well developed at this point. You'd probably hit it in an undergraduate-level physical meteorology class. The missing detail that the Contrails team helped solve was improving forecasts of the key parameters involved here from weather models.

The whole point is that this is _another_ lever that flight planners could use to optimize their route planning. It's just one factor. It has trade-offs - although those trade-offs aren't always net negative (e.g. it's not a given that the "less contrail-y" route is also the "more fuel burn-y" one).

Re: Contrails Map

#54

It states that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails made of aircraft soot. I’d like to see the literature and discovery of aircraft soot. As an engineer who has built aircraft, I find this fascinating. I would like to measure my amount of soot. How does one go about measuring how much soot I have? Obviously if my exhaust ports are black that’s bad but I’m genuinely curious about this as I’ve always assumed “b…

Fly less. Is waiting a week for a package really that big of a deal? Is traveling less really that much to ask? It’s totally ok to be skeptical of the claims. I can’t make a judgement on them as I know even less than you might. But that’s not a reason to doubt that human’s environment impact matters and that maybe part of the solution is for those of us with access to 2day delivery for everything and cheap flights li…

The general point here is that your individual behavior as a consumer likely doesn't impact this mechanism. An aircraft doesn't skip a flight just because you waited a week to go on vacation. Aviation infrastructure is something of a fixed-cost which would likely only respond to systemic changes in travel demand, economic impacts on maintenance or fueling, or possibly some other form of regulation (e.g. a penalty for inducing contrails).

Re: Contrails Map

#55
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The water is actually ice crystals and the ice crystals form around the soot.

There is also an immense amount of water vapour being produced by the combustion of a hydrocarbon.

Sure, but water vapor doesn't spontaneously transition to a liquid and accrete onto surfaces - there needs to be a super-saturation of water vapor, and given the temperatures of jet exhaust, that's not trivial to achieve. However, the super-saturation needed for water vapor to deposit onto surfaces as ice is much lower, hence the preference for ice crystal nucleation.

Re: Contrails Map

#56
Below is a comprehensive list of geoengineering-related patents, compiled to the best of my knowledge. Based on the language and scope of several of these patents, their stated purposes do not appear to be inherently human-friendly in any form as the language escalates from weather influence to planetary irradiation, artificial plasmas, relativistic particles, atmospheric weapons-scale energy systems, and even the generation of destructive weather events.

https://gist.github.com/pupdogg/4e796ed1bb0d24338a3f6523e404...

Examples:

    1. System and Method for Irradiation of Planet Surface Areas
    2. Method and Apparatus for Altering a Region in the Earth’s Atmosphere, Ionosphere, and/or Magnetosphere
    3. Broadcast Dissemination of Trace Quantities of Biologically Active Chemicals
    4. Method and Apparatus for Creating an Artificial Electron Cyclotron Heating Region of Plasma
    5. Method and Apparatus for Triggering a Substantial Change in Earth Characteristics and Measuring Earth Changes
    6. Planetary Weather Modification System

Re: Contrails Map

#57
Very interesting project! The possibility of showcasing the flat planet concept was just the tip of the iceberg.

Including aspects like water pollution and health risks would add significant value to this already impressive initiative.

Thank you for sharing!

Re: Contrails Map

#58

It states that half of aircraft pollution is from contrails made of aircraft soot. I’d like to see the literature and discovery of aircraft soot. As an engineer who has built aircraft, I find this fascinating. I would like to measure my amount of soot. How does one go about measuring how much soot I have? Obviously if my exhaust ports are black that’s bad but I’m genuinely curious about this as I’ve always assumed “b…

> As for contrails, disturbing the atmosphere is going to cause some freezing (clouds) at that altitude, at that temperature. How do you suggest we mitigate that? Fly lower and burn more fuel? Fly less and tell people to take the train or that their package will arrive next week?

See this article: https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/03/12/1089620/how-rero...

Here are some highlights, in case the paywall is a problem for some.

First, how much do contrails matter?

> This cirrus-forming phenomenon could account for around 35% of aviation’s total contribution to climate change—or about 1% to 2% of overall global warming, according to some estimates

> A small fraction of overall flights, between 2% and 10%, create about 80% of the contrails. So the growing hope is that simply rerouting those flights could significantly reduce the effect, presenting a potentially high leverage, low cost and fast way of easing warming.

Breakthrough Energy, Google Research, and American Airlines conducted a test:

> They employed satellite imagery, weather data, software models, and AI prediction tools to steer pilots over or under areas where their planes would be likely to produce contrails. American Airlines used these tools in 70 test flights over six months, and subsequent satellite data indicated that they reduced the total length of contrails by 54%, relative to flights that weren’t rerouted

Avoiding the contrail prone regions would use more fuel, so the question is how much would it cost to avoid those regions?

> A new study published in Environmental Research: Infrastructure and Sustainability explored this issue by coupling commercial tools for optimizing flight trajectories with models that simulated nearly 85,000 American Airlines flights, both domestic and international, under various weather conditions last summer and this winter.

> In those simulations, the researchers found that reducing the warming effect of contrails by 73% increased fuel costs by just 0.11% and overall costs by 0.08%, when averaged across those tens of thousands of flights. (Only about 14% of the flights needed to be adjusted to avoid forming warming contrails in the simulations.)

There are also a couple of other factors to consider, such as:

> There are also some thorny complications that still need to be resolved, like the fact that cirrus clouds can also reduce warming by reflecting away short-wave radiation from the sun.

> The loss of this cooling effect would have to be tallied into any calculation of the net benefit—or, perhaps, avoided. For instance, Shapiro says the initial strategy might be to reroute flights only during the early evening and night, which would eliminate the sunlight-reflecting complication.

Another one is the the increased fuel will add to CO2 to the atmosphere. CO2 stays in the atmosphere a lot longer than water, so it is possible that reducing contrails would be a net positive in the short term but a net negative over the long term.

Re: Contrails Map

#59
post #56

Below is a comprehensive list of geoengineering-related patents, compiled to the best of my knowledge. Based on the language and scope of several of these patents, their stated purposes do not appear to be inherently human-friendly in any form as the language escalates from weather influence to planetary irradiation, artificial plasmas, relativistic particles, atmospheric weapons-scale energy systems, and even the ge…

The fact that someone has filed a patent doesn't mean that they have a workable idea, only that they can formulate and illustrate said idea and that it doesn't overlap with something that already exists.

Re: Contrails Map

#60
post #43

Two links about "stratospheric aerosol injection" from mainstream sources. "The Advanced Research and Innovation Agency (ARIA) - a government backed body - is funding nearly £60m that could allow real-world experiments, including in the UK. "As part of the Exploring Climate Cooling programme, projects in Solar Radiation Modification (SRM) will involve trying to thicken Arctic sea ice and make clouds more reflective."…

So there are papers. There are studies on tons and tons of things. One of the things you learn really studying science is that there are always papers, and you really have to immerse yourself in a field to see what’s actually happening. People who believe in chemtrails need to prove that the it’s being done, is being done at industrial scale (not just a few one off experiments), and that this is harmful to human heal…

I've never taken much of an interest in the chemtrail thing, but it does seem funny that governments are proposing to do more or less the same thing they denied doing!

I can't see this being the answer though. Maybe I'm wrong, but it wouldn't be the first time environmental measures have proven destructive. Some of the most invasive pests have been brought in to control a less invasive ones e.g. cane toads in Australia. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

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