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Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

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Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#51

Post by lithocarpus »

embedding-shape wrote: post #30
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #17

I distincly recall many articles stating that for ridiculous EUR like 50k you could buy housing in spain right after 2007 the crisis, for many years afterward. Because it was so overbuilt , at least outside of the big metros) that the builders and sellers were desperate to move. I wonder if they all wiped out by the crisis (subprime really hit spain hard), and what we are seeing now is the consequence of that wipeout…

In large parts of Spain, that is still true. Entire rural villages for sale in some cases even. Problem is that it's in areas where people don't want to live. In the areas people want to live, the problem is the opposite, there isn't nearly enough housing, so you end up with some of the highest population densities in EU (#2 and #3 are both in Spain at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_... i…

More fundamentally, the trend of the world economy is toward turning everything anywhere in the world into either a resource to be exploited or a playground for the rich.

This is a big generalization but I think it's broadly true.

If you are in a "resource" area you'll get pollution and often instability and war.

If you are in a "playground" area you get massive cost increases and are eventually forced out.

As the trend is toward concentrating more and more wealth at the top, the slice of rich who can afford to enjoy the playgrounds becomes smaller and the number of refugees, homeless, and poor becomes larger and poorer.

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#52

Post by seer »

dvt wrote: post #22

This is not just a problem in Spain. Affordable housing is a problem in almost every Western metro, both in the US and in Europe. The problem is caused by the financialization of real estate. I know it's always been a bit of a financial asset, but the past 40 years have really seen this accelerate to pretty crazy levels. The issue, when you boil it down to the basics is: wealthy folks, development companies, overseas…

I don’t think that is the only solution.

I like what Singapore is doing - having a government built “base level” of housing that is both abundant and readily available - it can anchor the price where deep excesses are harder to end up with.

It’s like a market where a very significant player keeps the price law, because of its own reasons.

In such a scenario the price will not go up as sharply, so there would be less incentive for people to buy real estate just as a financial vehicle.

And the government can also prioritise who it sells the units it builds to - e.g. not investors.

I honestly am surprised why western governments are not trying this.

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#53

Post by FabHK »

embedding-shape wrote: post #35
vvpan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some places derive their identity and tourism income largely from how they look. Building could be slaying the goose that lays the golden egg.

Also, some places physically cannot grow outwards anymore, either because other cities are in the way or because of geographical elements like mountains being in the way. Barcelona is one such city, with one of the highest population density per km2. Only way is to build taller buildings, but no one wants to live in a city where you can't see the sky (ya ya, except Hong Kong and other places, don't ask me how they do…

Quality of life in HK is quite high, btw, plenty of green, parks, and sky. (However, no cycling in the centre, only the outer areas or islands.)

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#55

Post by MisterTea »

I was in Spain this past summer and it certainly seems they are experiencing tourist burnout. I saw anti tourist messages on banners hung on buildings, graffiti, posters and stickers in Madrid and Barcelona. Some of it was a bit threatening but I had zero issues.

The issue of airbnb is a sticky one. On one hand, being able to temporarily live in an apartment greatly enhances the immersiveness when your travel - you get to feel like a local and experience life in another place. Hotels suck as they cut corners to the point where an article posted here complaining about the lack of bathroom doors in hotels. On the other hand, these rentals drive up real estate prices and drives out locals. And often these rentals are in run-down low-income turning affordable yet poor quality housing into high quality temporary rentals. This drives out low income residents deepening income inequality issues while subjecting them to the threat of homelessness.

As long as we tolerate a society that only values ROI while ignoring the value of investing in humanity we won't resolve any of these issues. In a better world we would think about others and realize that easy access to shelter is foundational to stabilizing people to enable them to succeed in life. It's not hard, we have an abundance of materials and labor yet we have built a culture where helping others is some form of weakness for both parties.

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#56

Post by bluGill »

maeln wrote: post #13
probably_wrong wrote: post #5

As far as I understand this is the latest shot in the conflict between Spain and its lack of affordable housing. I'd put the symbolic start around 2004-2006 [1] with the movement called "you won't have a house in your fucking life" where people all over Spain started demonstrating against high apartment prices. I don't like AirBnB and I'm glad they got fined, but the Spanish government also needs to accept that they…

> Looks like politicians all over will do everything in their power except actually building more apartments. This is the wrong way to frame this issue. A lot of cities like Paris and Amsterdam have this issue with short-term renting. "Build moar" is just not really an option for these type of city. Firstly, the constructible area of the city is limited. So build, but build where ? You can expand horizontally, but th…

> means destroying potentially historic building, changing the skyline and viewpoint

Get over it! Seriously, most buildings are not historic. By trying to make them all historic you ensure they are all lost and the few that really are historic can't stand out for the history they represent. Save what is really history, but not everything.

Similarly, the skyline will change. That is life. Accept it. You do not own the view, it is the combination of everyone, and not everyone agrees with you so why are you forcing your preferred view on others?

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#57

Post by embedding-shape »

FabHK wrote: post #53
embedding-shape wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, some places physically cannot grow outwards anymore, either because other cities are in the way or because of geographical elements like mountains being in the way. Barcelona is one such city, with one of the highest population density per km2. Only way is to build taller buildings, but no one wants to live in a city where you can't see the sky (ya ya, except Hong Kong and other places, don't ask me how they do…

Quality of life in HK is quite high, btw, plenty of green, parks, and sky. (However, no cycling in the centre, only the outer areas or islands.)

Yes, I know, I was there again very recently and it's still mostly as nice as I remembered, lovely city all around and fascinating buildings, infrastructure and overall city :) It's quite different than other metropolitan cities, and I didn't mean it as a jab or anything, was just trying to "paint a picture", no offense meant :)

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#58

Post by bonzini »

embedding-shape wrote: post #30
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #17

I distincly recall many articles stating that for ridiculous EUR like 50k you could buy housing in spain right after 2007 the crisis, for many years afterward. Because it was so overbuilt , at least outside of the big metros) that the builders and sellers were desperate to move. I wonder if they all wiped out by the crisis (subprime really hit spain hard), and what we are seeing now is the consequence of that wipeout…

In large parts of Spain, that is still true. Entire rural villages for sale in some cases even. Problem is that it's in areas where people don't want to live. In the areas people want to live, the problem is the opposite, there isn't nearly enough housing, so you end up with some of the highest population densities in EU (#2 and #3 are both in Spain at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_... i…

> (#2 and #3 are both in Spain at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_... in "density per km2" for example, 50% of top 10 on that list is in Spain!)

That list does not make much sense, because it mostly consists of small municipalities that have been engulfed by growing metropolitan areas. Four of the five Spanish entries are like that, three in Valencia and one in Barcelona; and most other entries in the top 20 are suburbs of Paris, Athens or Naples.

Re: Spain fines Airbnb €65M: Why the government is cracking down on illegal rentals

#60

Post by jpalawaga »

maeln wrote: post #13
probably_wrong wrote: post #5

As far as I understand this is the latest shot in the conflict between Spain and its lack of affordable housing. I'd put the symbolic start around 2004-2006 [1] with the movement called "you won't have a house in your fucking life" where people all over Spain started demonstrating against high apartment prices. I don't like AirBnB and I'm glad they got fined, but the Spanish government also needs to accept that they…

> Looks like politicians all over will do everything in their power except actually building more apartments. This is the wrong way to frame this issue. A lot of cities like Paris and Amsterdam have this issue with short-term renting. "Build moar" is just not really an option for these type of city. Firstly, the constructible area of the city is limited. So build, but build where ? You can expand horizontally, but th…

except your argument as to why "build moar" isn't an option is basically "we acknowledge the population is booming, however, the vibes are more important than providing housing."

Sure, everyone wants their particular city to be frozen in time for cuteness and nostalgia reasons. However, it sort of assumes that the sociopolitical environment is also frozen (it isn't).

so instead you end up with voters voting against densification because, essentially, "I got mine."

p.s. i'm not sure that places that banned/heavily restricted airbnb experienced a meaningful decline in rental prices (e.g. new york, san francisco, vancouver, etc). it's basically a distraction from failed policy.

p.p.s. new york is one of the most popular tourist destinations and incredibly built up, and doesn't seem to have issues with tourists wanting to visit. tokyo too. and these also still have their quintessential historic/preserved areas, too.

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