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The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

anandsanwal.me

51–60 of 101 posts

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#51

Big swing and a miss by the author here. The learning is the point. Learning by nature shouldn't be optimized for efficiency. You learn deeply when you have to read sources, draw conclusions, synthesize information, and connect it to your own experiences. I recall writing essays in grade school and what mattered wasn't the end product but the process to arrive at the end product. The hours of research and analysis...…

> The learning is the point.

Execution is the point for the vast majority of the population, and academia has always been tone deaf to the raison d'etre of their enrollment base. people are there for jobs, academia is aware they are there for jobs, academia pretends they are the elite socioeconomic class there for knowledge and networking or on the path to be. they are not, they are an underclass in a world where it was temporarily beneficial for a broad population to be knowledge workers. A brief half century that caused all problems that academia faces today.

A half century that will be a footnote in the millenium of these institutions as a reversion to total class segregation returns, glasses clinking to laughs over this case study of folly.

Now, we're experiencing the industrialization of knowledge work, a segment that has been spared for 260 years of the industrial revolution. The nihilism is entirely warranted, and those validating the output of agents should remain specialized in their domain, trained by niche organizations on an adhoc basis via apprenticeships.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#52
post #11

Most western countries have somehow decided over the last couple decades that small negative actions should mostly be free of negative consequences. You can cheat on tests, shoplift in stores, and pretty much nothing will happen to you. When teachers can’t give failing grades to students or kick them out of their class for blatantly breaking the rules, this is what happens. Meanwhile I took a language exam in Japan l…

> Most western countries have somehow decided over the last couple decades that small negative actions should mostly be free of negative consequences.

There's a general loss of decorum, and it has such immense negative impact. There's so often someone acting like an animal on public transit, which is why many avoid it entirely.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#53

- the solution is very simple, stop giving homework completely - when students come to the classroom, before assigning them work, have them place their cellphones at the teacher's table - then give them homework, as simple as that

This is the correct answer and is being used by teacher friends of mine with great success. The structure they chose is in-class work counts for 80%+ of their grade. All work in class is done with pencil & paper. Quite simple in fact to solve a large part of the homework cheating issue.

that does mean that there is less classroom time devoted to lecture or other activities though if the teacher is supervising drills and group work, but it might be the only realistic way to proceed

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#54
post #30

This article isn't really about AI. It's about how this blogger doesn't value high-school education beyond it serving as a day-care. Talking about AI is for dressing this up as a controversial hot-take for click-bait. The root of the flaw in this thinking is a common assumption that school is designed to create drones for the workforce rather than to round out human beings. Giving youth an opportunity to be a part of…

> a general theme of discrediting and devaluing teachers and school in English speaking countries that is reinforced by Hollywood and out of touch billionaires

It's the dumbest thing for a culture to do to itself. I'm often so incredulous I want to believe it was actually done by soviet-bloc propaganda to undermine the west.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#56
post #42
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> back in the day... teachers still do this today. It's just that kids are less disciplined, and more prone to attention deficits. Not to mention that punishment for failure has been dulled down to almost non-existent. "No child left behind" had noble intentions, but the way it was implemented leaves much to be desired. To me, the fix is to cure the lack of consequences in the outcome of cheating. If you're allowed t…

> It's just that kids are less disciplined, and more prone to attention deficits. I think this puts the blame too much on the kids. Its not their fault we've created a world where they are surrounded by dopamine treadmills. I know you go on to say that we need to change their environment to solve the problem, and I wholeheartedly agree. I just wanted to point out that kids today are the victims in all this mess.

> puts the blame too much on the kids.

kinda, but i would say it's more a blame on the parents. They need to be able to control, and discipline their kids - ala, raising them properly.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#57
This is nonsense. School work is important. It isn't just teaching kids things, it's making them _practice thinking_.

I hate the classic question that often comes up in regard to math education, "When will I ever use this??"

The answer is simply that it makes them practice thinking. Human knowledge is transferable across domains. And practicing concentration and persistence is critical. Without these things, people can have all of the information in the world at their fingertips, but be completely unable to make reasoned decisions or continue to continue building new things upon the foundation that all of mankind has been building up diligently for millennia.

Don't let the kids cheat. Make them do their homework after hours in the library. Or the auditorium. Or the gym. Anywhere. Homework is supposed to be a couple of hours of "on your own" study after all, isn't it?

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#58
This writing an essay / writing a paper obsession doesn't make any sense to me. All American kids are always "writing a paper" on something. I never wrote a paper on anything of significance. If this constant writing of papers had a great effect, you'd expect me to perform at the 50th percentile or lower of people. But my income has always been much higher than that, I'd say I write more blog posts than the 50th percentile (the quality of which might suffer from the lack of paper-writing, one might claim), and I'd rate my life at much higher than the 50th percentile.

My parents took a different tack, and insisted that I spend my time reading, playing, or doing something. I spent very little time on homework because my parents negotiated this with the school. My school scored us entirely on exams, which I performed well on - just as I did well on the GRE to come here.

By the pedagogical standards of America, this must mean that I was atrociously educated. Why then am I happy and successful here? I suspect it is because paper-writing is a waste of time. I suspect that almost all education comes from solving the unknown related to the known (exercises), repeating the known (revision), and introduction of model-breaking notions (for which I don't have a short word). Even literary criticism would probably benefit from this structure.

This, along with the religion of note-taking[0], has made me suspect that US pedagogy is not particularly well-informed. The higher-education system is obviously superlative, but the teaching of children seems pretty haphazardly determined.

0: I've always hated note-taking. I'm glad to have found at least some others on HN like me https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45640454

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#59

Why not just let it be survival of the fittest? Those who are lazy will continue to be lazy. Those who are determined will continue to be determined. We don't need to help everyone, especially those who don't want to help themselves. If they want to suffer financially in the future because they are being lazy now, oh well, it can't be helped.

Because children need to be disciplined. That's part of education and parenting.

Re: The AI-Education Death Spiral a.k.a. Let the Kids Cheat

#60
post #3

From the article: > The next time a teacher complains about AI cheating, ask: If a machine can do this assignment perfectly, why are you giving it to this student? And then we can replace it with education and work that actually matters. While this might be more true of "factoid based classes" (such as geography) - it completely misses the point of subjects where students actively benefit from struggling through the…

Memorizing things, like place names, creates places in the brain to hang new information. New unknowns to pick at. Things other than how to get better at fortnite.
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