I don't get why Ruby is mentioned before PHP. The only Ruby thing I've ever come across is GitLab, and not with positive associations either - up until maybe 3, 4 years ago particularly Sidekiq was a constant point of utter pain.
Perl's decline was cultural
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Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perl is a sysadmin language. There's "always" been this tension between sysadmins and developers. In my mind (developer back then) I'd amateur-psychoanalyze all of that nonsense as some kind of inferiority complex meant to preserve the self image. Needless complexity can be a feature! And now we are all developers!
In the 2000’s Python was also a sysadmin language. Edit: But I see your point, Google SRE’s around the late 2000’s reached for Python more than Perl.
(90s) Yes, but it developed.
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#53I don't understand how Perl fell off and PHP didn't
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#54The lede says Perl died because it was "reactionary" and "culturally conservative", but the content says Perl died because it had bad culture, the culture of angry, socially corrosive anonymous internet commenters.
If Perl had had a good culture, then conserving it would have been good!
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#55Perl6/Raku killed Perl. Python 3 almost killed Python. It's normal. Once a community loses faith, it's hard to stop them from leaving.
I'd take this a step further and say that the design flaws that motivated Perl6 were what really killed Perl. Perl6 just accelerated the timeline.
I do imagine a saner migration could've been done - for example, declaring that regexes must not start with a non-escaped space and division must be surrounded by space, to fix one of the parsing problems - with the usual `use` incremental migration.
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#56Perl's "decline" saved it from a fate worst than death: popularity and splitting into dozens of incompatible versions from added/removed features (like python). Instead Perl is just available everywhere in the same stable form. Scripts always can just use the system perl interpreter. And most of the time a script written in $currentyear can run just as well on a perl system interpreter from 2 decades ago (and vice ve…
Perl's binary brings with it the ability to run every release of the language, from 5.8 onwards. You can mix and match Perl 5.30 code with 5.8 code with 5.20 code, whatever, just say "use v5.20.0;" at the start of each module or script. By comparison, Python can barely go one version without both introducing new things and removing old things from the language, so anything written in Python is only safe for a a fragi…
The Python approach seems better for avoiding subtle bugs. TIMTOWTDI vs "there should be one obvious way to do it" again.
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#57[deleted]
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#58Perl's "decline" saved it from a fate worst than death: popularity and splitting into dozens of incompatible versions from added/removed features (like python). Instead Perl is just available everywhere in the same stable form. Scripts always can just use the system perl interpreter. And most of the time a script written in $currentyear can run just as well on a perl system interpreter from 2 decades ago (and vice ve…
My language learning trajectory (from 10 years old) was 8086 assembly, QBASIC, C, Perl, Java, MAGMA, JavaScript/HTML/CSS, Python, Haskell, C++, vibe coding
How old are you now? Mid fifties here. And 'vibe coding' in what exactly - it is not of interest from a programming perspective, but from a 'what does the AI know best perspective'? I've followed a similar, but not identical trajectory and now vibe in python/htmx/flask without needing to review the code in depth (NB internal apps, not public facing ones), with claude code max. Vibe coding in the last 6-8 weeks now also seems to make a decent fist of embedded coding - esp32/arduino/esp-32, also claude code.
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#59Python is mentioned and I think the key reason it's continued to grow while Perl declined, is a vastly more welcoming culture. Python says you know nothing, but want to automate a small task. The community will help you. More so than any other language. Then again, Python 2 and Python 3 are two different languages. Very few projects are willing to have such a massive migration.
"Willing" is an interesting word choice. There was quite a bit of resistance in the Python world despite the clear benefits. (2.x really could not be fixed, because the semantics were fundamentally broken in many places.)
It's open source.
Any one ( and I'm sure a few have tried) can fork 2.x and keep using it.
3.x is remarkably easy , you can probably onboard a non programer to Python in a month.
Re: Perl's decline was cultural
#60I don't get why Ruby is mentioned before PHP. The only Ruby thing I've ever come across is GitLab, and not with positive associations either - up until maybe 3, 4 years ago particularly Sidekiq was a constant point of utter pain.
I was surprised by that, too, and assumed it was a decade-old article until I saw the date at the bottom. Both being mentioned before Python is wilder, as is the total exclusion of JavaScript.