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Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

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Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#51
I love math but the symbology and notations get in my way. 2 ideas:

1. Can we reinvent notation and symbology? No superscripts or subscripts or greek letters and weird symbols? Just functions with input and output? Verifiable by type systems AND human readable

2. Also, make the symbology hyperlinked i.e. if it uses a theorem or axiom that's not on the paper - hyperlink to its proof and so on..

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#52

I love math but the symbology and notations get in my way. 2 ideas: 1. Can we reinvent notation and symbology? No superscripts or subscripts or greek letters and weird symbols? Just functions with input and output? Verifiable by type systems AND human readable 2. Also, make the symbology hyperlinked i.e. if it uses a theorem or axiom that's not on the paper - hyperlink to its proof and so on..

I'd love getting rid of all the weird symbols in favor of clear text functions or whatever. As someone who never learnt all the weird symbols its really preventing me from getting into math again... It is just not intuitive.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#53
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't want to be uncharitable, but I've noticed that a lot of stem fields make heavy use of esoteric language and syntax, and I suspect they do so as a means of gatekeeping. I understand that some degree of formalism is required to enable the sharing of knowledge amongst people across a variety of languages, but sometimes I'll read a white paper and think "wow, this could be written a LOT more simply". Statis…

My opinion on this is that in mathematics the material can be presented in a very dry and formal way, often in service of rigor, which is not welcoming at all, and is in fact unnecessarily unwelcoming. But I don’t believe it to be used as gatekeeping at all. At worst, hazing (“it was difficult for me as newcomer so it should be difficult to newcomers after me”) or intellectual status (“look at this textbook I wrote t…

The upside of a "dry and formal" presentation is that it removes any ambiguity about what exactly you're discussing, and how a given argument is supposed to flow. Some steps may be skipped, but at least the overall structure will be clear enough. None of that is guaranteed when dealing with an "intuitive" presentation, especially when people tend to differ about what the "right" intuition of something ought to be. That can be even more frustrating, precisely when there's insufficient "dry and formal" rigor to pin everything down.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't want to be uncharitable, but I've noticed that a lot of stem fields make heavy use of esoteric language and syntax, and I suspect they do so as a means of gatekeeping. I understand that some degree of formalism is required to enable the sharing of knowledge amongst people across a variety of languages, but sometimes I'll read a white paper and think "wow, this could be written a LOT more simply". Statis…

3blue1brown proves your point. The saying, "What one fool can do, another can," is a motto from Silvanus P. Thompson's book Calculus Made Easy. It suggests that a task someone without great intelligence can accomplish must be relatively simple, implying that anyone can learn to do it if they put in the effort. The phrase is often used to encourage someone, demystify a complex subject, and downplay the difficulty of a…

3blue1brown actually shows the usefulness of formalism. The videos are great, but by avoiding formalism, they are at least for me harder to understand than traditional sources. It is true that you need to get over the hump of understanding the formalism first, but that formalism is a very useful tool of thought. Consider algebraic notation with plus and times and so on. That makes things way easier to understand than writing out equations in words (as mathematicians used to do!). It is the same for more advanced formalisms.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#55
Mathematics is hard when there is not much time invested in processing the core idea.

For example, Dvoretzky-Rogers theorem in isolation is hard to understand.

While more applications of it appear While more generalizations of it appear While more alternative proofs of it appear

it gets more clear. So, it takes time for something to become digestible, but the effort spent gives the real insights.

Last but not least is the presentation of this theorem. Some authors are cryptic, others refactor the proof in discrete steps or find similarities with other proofs.

Yes it is hard but part of the work of the mathematician is to make it easier for the others.

Exactly like in code. There is a lower bound in hardness, but this is not an excuse to keep it harder than that.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't want to be uncharitable, but I've noticed that a lot of stem fields make heavy use of esoteric language and syntax, and I suspect they do so as a means of gatekeeping. I understand that some degree of formalism is required to enable the sharing of knowledge amongst people across a variety of languages, but sometimes I'll read a white paper and think "wow, this could be written a LOT more simply". Statis…

> Yeah, I don't want to be uncharitable, but I've noticed that a lot of stem fields make heavy use of esoteric language and syntax, and I suspect they do so as a means of gatekeeping. I think you're confusing "I don't understand this" with "the man is keeping me down". All fields develop specialized language and syntax because a) they handle specialized topics and words help communicate these specialized concepts in…

Statistics is a weird special case where major subfields of applied statistics (including machine learning, but not only) sometimes retain wildly divergent terminology for the exact same concepts, for no good reason at all except the vagaries of historical development.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#57
post #19

I think this would be extremely valuable: “We need to focus far more energy on understanding and explaining the basic mental infrastructure of mathematics—with consequently less energy on the most recent results.” I’ve long thought that more of us could devout time to serious maths problems if they were written in a language we all understood. A little off topic perhaps, but out of curiosity - how many of us here hav…

Yeah, I don't want to be uncharitable, but I've noticed that a lot of stem fields make heavy use of esoteric language and syntax, and I suspect they do so as a means of gatekeeping. I understand that some degree of formalism is required to enable the sharing of knowledge amongst people across a variety of languages, but sometimes I'll read a white paper and think "wow, this could be written a LOT more simply". Statis…

In this modern era of easily accessible knowledge, how gate keepy is it though? It's inscrutable at first glance, but ChatGPT is more than happy to explain what the hell ℵ₀, ℵ₁, ♯, ♭, or Σ mean, and you can ask it to read the arxiv pdf and have it explain it to you.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#58
"The unknown thing to be known appeared to me as some stretch of earth or hard marl, resisting penetration... the sea advances insensibly in silence, nothing seems to happen, nothing moves, the water is so far off you hardly hear it... yet finally it surrounds the resistant substance."

A. Grothendieck

Understanding mathematical ideas often requires simply getting used to them

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#59
As someone who has always struggled with mathematics at the calculational level, but who really enjoys theorems and proofs (abstract mathematics), here are some things that help me.

1. Study predicate logic, then study it again, and again, and again. The better and more ingrained predicate logic becomes in your brain the easier mathematics becomes.

2. Once you become comfortable with predicate logic, look into set theory and model theory and understand both of these well. Understand the precise definition of "theory" wrt to model theory. If you do this, you'll have learned the rules that unify nearly all of mathematics and you'll also understand how to "plug" models into theories to try and better understand them.

3. Close reading. If you've ever played magic the gathering, mathematics is the same thing--words are defined and used in the same way in which they are in games. You need to suspend all the temptation to read in meanings that aren't there. You need to read slowly. I've often only come upon a key insight about a particular object and an accurate understanding only after rereading a passage like 50 times. If the author didn't make a certain statement, they didn't make that statement, even if it seems "obvious" you need to follow the logical chain of reasoning to make sure.

4. Translate into natural english. A lot of math books will have whole sections of proofs and /or exercises with little to no corresponding natural language "explainer" of the symbolic statements. One thing that helps me tremendously is to try and frame any proof or theorem or collection of these in terms of the linguistic names for various definitions etc. and to try and summarize a body of proofs into helpful statements. For example "groups are all about inverses and how they allow us to "reverse" compositions of (associative) operations--this is the essence of "solvability"". This summary statement about groups helps set up a framing for me whenever I go and read a proof involving groups. The framing helps tremendously because it can serve as a foil too—i.e. if some surprising theorem contravene's the summary "oh, maybe groups aren't just about inversions" that allows for an intellectual development and expansion that I find more intuitive. I sometimes think of myself as a scientist examining a world of abstract creatures (the various models (individuals) of a particular theory (species))

5. Contextualize. Nearly all of mathematics grew out of certain lines of investigation, and often out of concrete technical needs. Understanding this history is a surprisingly effective way to make many initially mysterious aspects of a theory more obvious, more concrete, and more related to other bits of knowledge about the world, which really helps bolster understanding.

Re: Mathematics is hard for mathematicians to understand too

#60
post #24
post #19

I think this would be extremely valuable: “We need to focus far more energy on understanding and explaining the basic mental infrastructure of mathematics—with consequently less energy on the most recent results.” I’ve long thought that more of us could devout time to serious maths problems if they were written in a language we all understood. A little off topic perhaps, but out of curiosity - how many of us here hav…

> I’ve long thought that more of us could devout time to serious maths problems if they were written in a language we all understood. That assumes it’s the language that makes it hard to understand serious math problems. That’s partially true (and the reason why mathematicians keep inventing new language), but IMO the complexity of truly understanding large parts of mathematics is intrinsic, not dependent on terminol…

Precisely. Think of mathematics like a game.

Players of magic the gathering will say a creature "has flying" by which they mean "it can only be blocked by other creatures with reach or flying".

Newcomers obviously need to learn this jargon, but once they do, communication is greatly facilitated by not having to spell out the definition.

Just like games, the definitions in mathematics are ethereal and purely formal as well, and it would be a pain to spell them out on every occasion. It stems more from efficient communication needs then from gatekeeping.

You expect the players of the game to learn the rules before they play.

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