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DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

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Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#51
post #30

What's happening right now is very different than what happened back during the dot com crash. When they were doing price fixing it was because there was a glut of supply and demand was tanking. Prices were falling and they coordinated to keep prices from falling less. Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless. Prices are going up . The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other…

> Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless Why is demand extremely high right now when it wasn't a couple of months ago? What changed since then that caused it to triple overnight?

People pulling their heads out of their ass as to how to actually deploy these systems at scale (AKA to do this effectively, you need to do more than just throw pallets of GPU's at it, such as properly considering Topologies of both NVMe-over-Fabric and PCIe roots/lanes [0]) combined with advances in various technologies (eg RDMA, CXL, cuDF/BaM/GPUD2S/etc) that meaningfully enhance how system ram can be integrated and leveraged are a big part of it.

Also we're hitting that 5 years after DDR5 being readily available which means that a lot of existing enterprise hardware that was on DDR4 is going EOL and being replaced with DDR5 which, given many platforms these days have many more channels available than previously, results in more DRAM being bought than was previously used per node and in total. A lot of enterprise was still buying new DDR4 into 2023 as it was a more affordable way to deploy systems with lots of PCIe lanes which was more important than any the costs associated with the performance gain from DDR5 or related CPU's. (Also, early days DDR5 wasn't really any faster than DDR4 with how loose the timing was unless you were willing to pay a BIG premium)

Regarding the hype of the day: AI specifically, part of it is the rise of wrappers and agents and inference in general that can run on CPU's/leverage system ram. These usecases aren't as sensitive to latency as the training side of things as the network latency from the remote user to the datacenter means latency hits due to hitting the CPU ringbus(infinity fabric, QPI, whatever you want to call it) results in a much less significant share over the overall overhead, and the cost/benefit/availability concerns there has also increased the demand for non-GPU AI compute and RAM.

I wouldn't rule out corruption/price fixing (They've done it before) but I have no evidence of this. Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think this is it (unless this problem persists for several quarters/years)

There's some geopolitics and FOMO (Corporate keeping up with the joneses) and economics that goes into this as well but I can't really speculate on that specifically, that's not really my area of expertise. Suffice to say, it's kind of like a bank run where it's not so much that the demand itself hit the curve of the hockey stick, but it was gradually increasing until it hit a threshold that was starting to cause delays in delivery/deployments. Given how important many companies view being on the cutting edge here, this lead to sudden spike in volume customers willing to pay premiums for early delivery to hit deployment deadlines, artificially inflating demand and further constraining supply, which just fed back into that feedback loop pushing transient demand even higher.

0: Yes NVMe NAND flash is different than DRAM flash, but the systems/clusters that host the NVMe JBOD's tend to use lots of sysRAM for their index/metadata/"superhot" data layer (think memcached, Redis, the MDS nodes for Lustre, etc), and with the advent of CXL and SCM you can deploy even more DRAM to a cluster/fabric than what is strictly presented by the CPU/mobo's memory controllers/channels. This is not driving overall market volume, but is a source of fierce competition for supply at the very "top" of the DRAM/Flash market.

TL;DR: Convergence of a lot of things driving demand.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#52
post #36

What's happening right now is very different than what happened back during the dot com crash. When they were doing price fixing it was because there was a glut of supply and demand was tanking. Prices were falling and they coordinated to keep prices from falling less. Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless. Prices are going up . The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other…

> The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other on cost even just a little bit to pick up market share is extremely lucrative. I would argue that the DRAM price fixing scandal actually demonstrates that the industry operates like a cartel. During times of low demand and high supply, they will coordinate to protect prices, and then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate…

If there are a small number of sellers and barriers to entry are high, we should expect at the bare minimum "tacit collusion":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_collusion

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#53
Unfortunately got some experience with that...

Busy getting my new build together so today I bought a 8 Tb WD Black 2280 SSD, a 2 Tb WD Black 2230 SSD and 2 x 64 Gb Crucial SODIMMs for (in comparison) a whopping 1850 USD...

Yes, that's pretty much a complete PC. Or at least it used to be.

Hopefully prices for Radeons remain a bit stable for the coming weeks, I'm still figuring out which one to buy to replace my aging Geforce 1080 and drive my 3840x2160 widescreen...

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#55
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless Why is demand extremely high right now when it wasn't a couple of months ago? What changed since then that caused it to triple overnight?

Fundamentally because demand and supply curves are lagged. This drives DRAM flood and drought cycles. Right now high DRAM prices are driving fab investment up and demand down. In 3-5 years new fabs will cause DRAM glut that will drive prices down. Lower prices will stimulate demand via things like doubling DRAM size in consumer electronics as companies compete on getting the number bigger. Eventually demand curve wil…

The biggest issue here is that it hurts smaller consumers. Scaling up a fab to produce ram takes 5+ years, people generally buy new hardware ~5 years so this lifecycle of hardware for some people is now locked out. Let's say you was due for an upgrade this year you now might be priced out of the market for the next 5 years and basically due to poor business practices

There is a similar issue happening in the manufacturing space where metal foundries are basically "full" up on allocation for other customers and will refuse to sell to you unless your purchase order is six digits otherwise you pay a hefty premium which once again drives capital towards larger corporations. Compounded by a stagnant jobs market the means that scarcity is just going up and up and nobody is re-investing to meet consumer demands because the market is poisoned by speculation to the absolute extreme

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#56
post #36

What's happening right now is very different than what happened back during the dot com crash. When they were doing price fixing it was because there was a glut of supply and demand was tanking. Prices were falling and they coordinated to keep prices from falling less. Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless. Prices are going up . The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other…

> The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other on cost even just a little bit to pick up market share is extremely lucrative. I would argue that the DRAM price fixing scandal actually demonstrates that the industry operates like a cartel. During times of low demand and high supply, they will coordinate to protect prices, and then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate…

> then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate to keep the price from dropping.

Why would they need to coordinate to keep the price from dropping during a spike in demand? a spike in demand will obviously not be expected to lower prices regardless of collusion

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#57
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right now demand for DRAM is extremely high bordering on endless Why is demand extremely high right now when it wasn't a couple of months ago? What changed since then that caused it to triple overnight?

Fundamentally because demand and supply curves are lagged. This drives DRAM flood and drought cycles. Right now high DRAM prices are driving fab investment up and demand down. In 3-5 years new fabs will cause DRAM glut that will drive prices down. Lower prices will stimulate demand via things like doubling DRAM size in consumer electronics as companies compete on getting the number bigger. Eventually demand curve wil…

This isn't true. It used to be, as a new fab would appreciably add quantity. At 1M wspm in 2015, a new 100k fab at the most modern node would add effectively 20-30% capacity, and usually multiple.players at once, since all had cash.

Now, the relative shrink is tiny, so capacity adds are just wspm, in effect, and that gives 5%.

Put differently, you cannot invest your way out of the shortage, or into meaningful share....so you take profit.

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#58
post #47
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other on cost even just a little bit to pick up market share is extremely lucrative. I would argue that the DRAM price fixing scandal actually demonstrates that the industry operates like a cartel. During times of low demand and high supply, they will coordinate to protect prices, and then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate…

> Following the plea agreement he was sentenced to 8 months in prison and fined US$250,000.[6] Lee was subsequently promoted to President of Samsung Germany in 2009, and then President of Samsung Europe in 2014. Lmao he got rewarded for taking the fall.

[deleted]

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#59

Yep, it doubled in the last 4 months https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Zc-FsUDCM I upgraded my PC by adding 64GB.. two Fridays ago I sold the 32 GB I took out for the same amount of what I paid for the 64 GB in July... insane

Bought a 64gb upgrade kit in September for my wife's new PC for $205. The same kit right now on Newegg is $570. That's not even double in 4 months; thats almost triple in 2 months.

If I can get that right now $389 retail is there an arb opportunity (not in US, but maybe you are getting fucked on tariffs? Could that be the difference?)

Re: DRAM prices are spiking, but I don't trust the industry's why

#60
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The incentive for one of the big players to undercut the other on cost even just a little bit to pick up market share is extremely lucrative. I would argue that the DRAM price fixing scandal actually demonstrates that the industry operates like a cartel. During times of low demand and high supply, they will coordinate to protect prices, and then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate…

> then during spikes in demand (or alleged spikes in demand) they coordinate to keep the price from dropping. Why would they need to coordinate to keep the price from dropping during a spike in demand? a spike in demand will obviously not be expected to lower prices regardless of collusion

Yes, the industry is capacity limited so if there's a true spike in demand, prices will be high even absent any collusion. Especially if previous investment in expanding capacity has been lacking for many years.
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