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Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

theguardian.com

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Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#51

Post by atoav »

eqvinox wrote: post #19
david38 wrote: post #16

Seems reasonable, but maybe not exactly a weapon. It is used to subdue someone, but not as a threat. Should be a parallel class. And while the intended assault is a sexual assault, a date rape drug still incapacitates you, which easily classifies as kidnapping, unlawful detainment, etc.

A stick of dynamite probably counts as a weapon too (I would think?), in a legal sense. I'd say it's a reasonable perspective for the legalese. Also, cars have been considered weapons in some cases.

Exactly, or a piece of wood. If you threaten someone with a 2x4 you may have intended to use it as a weapon even if it was technically just a piece of wood.

This can of course lead to problems where the police can turn everything into a weapon even if it was never intended to be one, but I'd argue this is less of a problem with these rape drugs, as this shouldn't be a thing people normally carry with themselves for legit reasons.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#52

Post by impossiblefork »

Beijinger wrote: post #22
andrewflnr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

That is definitely not how German law would deal with the situation in practice. Aliens would certainly be considered people and protected by the law, even if they weren't humans, and they would definitely still be animals.

Shooting an alien robot though, then you would have something legally problematic. Ownership? Is it so advanced it's a person? But you'd probably get something like those Star Trek episodes with legal weirdness rather than any no-crime-without-law reasoning.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#53

Post by afiori »

Beijinger wrote: post #22
andrewflnr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

I am pretty sure that hunting laws would apply

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#54

Post by afiori »

Beijinger wrote: post #22
andrewflnr wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law being written does not prevent changing it[0]. Someone changed the written law once to add these weapon-specific provisions, they can do it again. And unless the optimal provisions for date rape drugs are identical to those for weapons, they probably should do it again. [0] It might actually be easier to change a properly written law. I hate our stupid precedent-based system in the US.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

Anyway this is a matter of judicial discretion to decide whether personhood and rights would apply to an alien visitor.

The only difference between precedent laws and codes is that the judges act as a secondary less stable legislature.

You could very well have a mixed system where legislature has to filter and ratify court rulings to decide which become law and which do not.

In short this has nothing to do with having actual laws

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#55

Post by jojobas »

im3w1l wrote: post #11
jojobas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the substance is present in a victim's body There is a possibility that the accused has nothing to do with it, you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug.

> you still have to prove it wasn't some third party or the victim who procured and took the drug. Does it actually work that way in the real world?

Otherwise it would have been a free send anyone promiscuous to jail card.

Have sex, take a tiny amount of whatever drug it is, straight to cops.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#56

Post by throwaway290 »

baiac wrote: post #49
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I have to assume perpetrator?

Pretending not to understand a chart will not stop people from voting for the right wing parties. Just a thought, in case you care about that.

sensational but vague label just a sign that it's generally sus. no links to underlying data. it's very easy to make up bar charts.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#57

Post by constantcrying »

In Germany participation in a gang rape of a minor might get you nothing more than probation (No, not because there was any doubt over the guilt, the guilt was established.).

It is completely ridiculous to debate these nuanced laws about rape, when the punishment for participating in a brutal gang rape is a stern talking to.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#58

Post by RaiausderDose »

I hope the classification for these drugs is not so wide that "normal" drug users are now weapon holders while using their stuff recreational without harming anybody.

Edit: I got more infos:

- Germany's national authorities will classify GBL and 1,4-Butanediol as weapons under German criminal law, treating administration as weapon deployment to strengthen prosecution.

- Under previous German criminal law, administering date-rape drugs was often charged as bodily harm without weapon classification, while survivor groups noted victims face memory loss complicating evidence.

- The reform permits courts to apply strengthened sentencing, allowing German prosecutors and courts to impose longer prison terms and mandatory minimums since administering drugs counts as weapon use, aiding prosecution.

- Survivors of drug-facilitated assault stand to gain a stronger legal foundation and clearer accountability, while the symbolic framing signals a cultural shift in German society prioritizing survivor protection.

- Legal experts warn that judicial training, forensic improvements and survivor-centered reporting systems are vital, while critics caution offenders may exploit loopholes or switch substances without such measures.

---

Seems reasonable, complicated topic

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#59

Post by RaiausderDose »

constantcrying wrote: post #57

In Germany participation in a gang rape of a minor might get you nothing more than probation (No, not because there was any doubt over the guilt, the guilt was established.). It is completely ridiculous to debate these nuanced laws about rape, when the punishment for participating in a brutal gang rape is a stern talking to.

Please tell me which legal case you mean? Sounds very much like a bubble-YouTube story about ‘Muslims can rape everybody in Germany without getting punishment.’

Acquittals happen when there are contradictions in the evidence or victims testimonies, but when it's clear that a rape occurred and the perpetrator only gets a stern talking to - don't really know such stuff happening.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#60

Post by constantcrying »

RaiausderDose wrote: post #59
constantcrying wrote: post #57

In Germany participation in a gang rape of a minor might get you nothing more than probation (No, not because there was any doubt over the guilt, the guilt was established.). It is completely ridiculous to debate these nuanced laws about rape, when the punishment for participating in a brutal gang rape is a stern talking to.

Please tell me which legal case you mean? Sounds very much like a bubble-YouTube story about ‘Muslims can rape everybody in Germany without getting punishment.’ Acquittals happen when there are contradictions in the evidence or victims testimonies, but when it's clear that a rape occurred and the perpetrator only gets a stern talking to - don't really know such stuff happening.

I assume you can use some translation software or speak German: https://justiz.hamburg.de/gerichte/oberlandesgericht/gericht...

By the way, this is a statement by the city itself, not any reporting on it.

The statement explicitly states, that the guilt of the perpetrators was established. And they are guilty of raping a person which could not help themselves "Die Angeklagten der ersten und zweiten Gruppe wurden aufgrund dieser Feststellungen der Vergewaltigung unter Ausnutzung einer hilflosen Lage schuldig gesprochen".

Oh, they also filmed the rape and robbed her. The girl was 15.

Here is another article, by the German state media: https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/hamburg/Stadtpark-Prozess-Bun...

It confirms the same things. The highest punishment were two years and 9 months, all other perpetrators (again, there was no doubt about the guilt) received probation. It also mentions their ages as being between 16 and 20. While I can see some circumstances lessening the guilt of a 16 year old, a 20 year old knows that he is commiting a heinous crime.

Just to make it clear. There was no doubt what happened. The guilt of the perpetrator was established.

Can you honestly tell me that this was justice? That the perpetrators received a punishment worthy of their crime, which after all consistent of gang rape, robbery and filming a 15 year old getting raped.

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