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How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

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Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#51

Post by buran77 »

tptacek wrote: post #29
owlninja wrote: post #2

I recently contributed to https://deflock.me/ We had a local story where the gist was the police said they searched ALPR for the welfare of a young woman, but it was actually more focused on a possible abortion. [1] "Unrelated" this same Sheriff was later charged with sexual harassment, perjury, and retaliation against a witness [2]. These are the types that are able to easily track you if they wanted to. [1] https:/…

The thing about this Texas abortion Flock story is: whether or not your muni keeps Flock, absolutely no municipality should have out-of-state data sharing on (arguably, none of them should have any data sharing on at all --- operationally, departments do just fine making phone calls and getting the data they need). This is totally configurable inside Flock. It's very easy for a police department to do. Sometimes they…

> arguably, none of them should

Indisputably, once someone has a hammer, especially one that grants them this much extra power, they will go looking for nails. In 2025 those who still defend those "hammers" with the wide-eyed impression that they can somehow control them once they're out there are at best showing hubris, lack of foresight, and disregard for the history books.

To be more clear, when you push for "less sharing" and somehow get it, you aren't actually getting what you want, you're just getting less of what you didn't want. It's like when the waiter asks you how much spit you want in your soup, the correct answer is to kick the waiter out not to demand a minimal amount.

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#52

Post by Psillisp »

dang wrote: post #14
varispeed wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Please don't post like this to HN. Regardless of how bad a situation is or you feel it is, we need you (i.e. not you personally, but all of us) to stick to the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[flagged]

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#53

Post by SoftTalker »

pugworthy wrote: post #34
owlninja wrote: post #2

I recently contributed to https://deflock.me/ We had a local story where the gist was the police said they searched ALPR for the welfare of a young woman, but it was actually more focused on a possible abortion. [1] "Unrelated" this same Sheriff was later charged with sexual harassment, perjury, and retaliation against a witness [2]. These are the types that are able to easily track you if they wanted to. [1] https:/…

In exploring my state (Oregon), I'm seeing an interesting pattern to where they are frequently located. Specifically, at home improvement store parking lots. And in most cases, the ones at home improvement stores are the only ones in the city. Salem (the state capital) only has them at Lowes. Eugene is an exception with many cameras (including Home Depot and Lowe's). I'd be interested in when these cameras were place…

Because those places have a huge problem with shoplifting. At least that's the story they tell.

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#54

Post by pugworthy »

pugworthy wrote: post #34
owlninja wrote: post #2

I recently contributed to https://deflock.me/ We had a local story where the gist was the police said they searched ALPR for the welfare of a young woman, but it was actually more focused on a possible abortion. [1] "Unrelated" this same Sheriff was later charged with sexual harassment, perjury, and retaliation against a witness [2]. These are the types that are able to easily track you if they wanted to. [1] https:/…

In exploring my state (Oregon), I'm seeing an interesting pattern to where they are frequently located. Specifically, at home improvement store parking lots. And in most cases, the ones at home improvement stores are the only ones in the city. Salem (the state capital) only has them at Lowes. Eugene is an exception with many cameras (including Home Depot and Lowe's). I'd be interested in when these cameras were place…

Montana is an interesting state. Very few cameras state wide (20), and all but 3 are at Lowe's and Home Depot.

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#55

Post by Spivak »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #47
comrh wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Criminal Justice Reform --> Surge in crime That's a big assumption considering crime rates are already at lows

[flagged]

Of course, you should instead believe your own anecdotal evidence that marks a tally every time you hear about a crime, which if you watch local news is always, but doesn't mark a tally every time there isn't a crime.

Fun fact that's totally not related, did you know that people who listen to true crime podcasts are more likely to believe a crime could happen to their families and are also more likely to install higher levels of security on their house?

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#56

Post by SoftTalker »

nonethewiser wrote: post #20
nyc_data_geek1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law can be utterly egregious and an affront to morality. Legal behavior can thus be an utterly egregious affront to human decency. See: Apartheid There is no handwaving away the moral implications of these technologies, and who they empower to do what to whom.

Im saying its a normal, predictable use of flock. Not that it's OK. Many readers might not know that abortions for the most part aren't legal in Texas. You should expect flock to assist law enforcement in catching people doing something illegal.

They don't catch people doing something illegal. They might record someone's car being near some place where maybe something illegal happened. That's not the standard of "reasonable doubt" required for a criminal conviction, and at best is (weak) circumstantial evidence.

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#57

Post by pugworthy »

SoftTalker wrote: post #53
pugworthy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In exploring my state (Oregon), I'm seeing an interesting pattern to where they are frequently located. Specifically, at home improvement store parking lots. And in most cases, the ones at home improvement stores are the only ones in the city. Salem (the state capital) only has them at Lowes. Eugene is an exception with many cameras (including Home Depot and Lowe's). I'd be interested in when these cameras were place…

Because those places have a huge problem with shoplifting. At least that's the story they tell.

I imagine there's some truth to that. But if I was someone wanting to setup some ICE action, I'd probably be drooling at the thought of accessing that data being a central gathering points for day laborers looking for work.

https://www.wsj.com/business/retail/home-depot-immigration-i...

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#58

Post by potsandpans »

dang wrote: post #14
varispeed wrote: post #3

[flagged]

Please don't post like this to HN. Regardless of how bad a situation is or you feel it is, we need you (i.e. not you personally, but all of us) to stick to the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It's always curious how and when you decide to pop into threads and request that people follow the rules of hackernews. You claim that the site and your moderation principles are not (or have limited) ideologically motivated(tions), but your enforcement (or engagement) is uneven and certainly along some political axis.

From the rules:

> Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.

Yet one of the top comments of most front page items is always a useless comment of clickbait or some pedantic complaint/accusation about some format of the title/submission.

You have a hard job, it's not intended to be an indictment of your behavior. Just a general observation that I wonder if you're cognizant of.

If the community needs this so badly, why is the above aforementioned behavior so prevent that it's become a meme of hackernews behavior?

Re: How Cops Are Using Flock's ALPR Network to Surveil Protesters and Activists

#59

Post by aerostable_slug »

tptacek wrote: post #39
wil421 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The city I used to live in trialed flock cameras for car theft. They caught more car thefts in January of the trial year than the previous year’s total.

We started hoping that car thefts would be a pressure point for a lot of violent crime (which tends to be committed from stolen cars --- this is the Kia problem). But we caught more innocent drivers with stale entries on the Illinois LEADS hotlist than actual stolen cars. When we OK'd the system after its pilot, it was on the condition that we no longer curb cars based on stolen car reports at all --- we'd only curb…

The lesson I keep getting from your experiences is that LEADS needs an overhaul.

It turns out other states do have flags for things like "extraditable warrant" vs. just failure to appear warrants (something mentioned in previous discussions), and perhaps something could be done about the LEADS system if attention was given to it. It seems like fixing one's data sources is a great approach vs. tossing the baby out with the bathwater — unless of course that's the intention all along, as it is with many opposed to state-owned surveillance of this nature.

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