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New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

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Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#51

Why is every new OS project just a rehash of 60/70's tech. What about something new that actually attempts to move the field forward.

I would argue that iPadOS (built on iPhone's coat tails) moved the field forward significantly in terms of isolation and user security.

While this has left a long tail of inconveniences, many resolved and some not, I am very confident that using 1 app on my iPhone/iPad will not leak data to another in any case that I am likely to care about as a non-significantly interesting person (political figure, etc).

... and for those people Apple even makes lockdown mode to move the bar, while acknowledging it adds extra inconvenience: https://support.apple.com/en-au/105120

I have no such confidence about macOS, Linux or Windows, in fact the reverse. macOS has done the best at trying to bolt on some sandboxing (and linux has it too) but that's still very holey and not all-in like iOS/iPadOS has ended up.

Yes, I know there have been many bugs and leaks in iOS but the security level is far and above the desktops currently, and designed that way from the ground up. So when they finally make something work like copy and paste or sharing between apps, etc... it's by and large done very well.

It's been very difficult to add that kind of thing to Linux because you're trying to do the reverse and lock things down and it breaks everything... making it very challenging.. as opposed to Apple where basically nothing useful worked at the start (no copy/paste, one app at a time, no meaningful filesystem, etc).. but managed to get the product successful in the limited state and has slowly unlocked that stuff over time. Admittedly very slowly.

I cannot speak for Android as I just have never used it or surrounded myself in info about it's design, security, etc.. it may well be very similar although they from my casual observation seemed to do a much worse job at granular privacy permissions (e.g. for the longest time permissions were all granted at install time, and so many apps want so many most people are blind to it.. as opposed to Apple's model where even if notarised for something on the app store in most cases you have to agree to it when the app first uses it.. I know they fixed that a while back but I have no idea how well things have transitioned to that now). As a very techy person deeply knowledge in many things, and using desktop Linux since 2002, it's kindof a hilarious personal failing that I have never used Android.. I really should try and resolve that at some point.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#52
The RavynOS project would have a good chance at being binary compatible with Mac OSX if it copied all the Darwin libraries from the Darling project and used LLVM to generate all the appropriate dylibs. That's something I would support and contribute to. It could get to the point where it could run macOS console based applications.

But if macOS binary compatibility is not the goal, then there's no need for a Mach-O loader - it brings nothing to the table. Just use ELF binaries. Although at that point there's nothing macOS about it - it's just a Mac-like UI facade for FreeBSD distro with a different API. If Ravyn doesn't want to be to macOS like WINE is to Windows, I don't see the point.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#53

The RavynOS project would have a good chance at being binary compatible with Mac OSX if it copied all the Darwin libraries from the Darling project and used LLVM to generate all the appropriate dylibs. That's something I would support and contribute to. It could get to the point where it could run macOS console based applications. But if macOS binary compatibility is not the goal, then there's no need for a Mach-O lo…

> copied all the Darwin libraries from the Darling project and used LLVM to generate all the appropriate dylibs

I'm just starting for the day and misread that as "...used LLM to generate...", and I wondered what kind of crack you were smoking.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#54
post #3

> A BSD-based OS project that aims to provide source and binary compatibility with macOS® and a similar user experience. I am curious - what is the motivation for this project? Is it to replicate macOS? - If yes, why? Is it to provide application compatibility on a non-macOS? If yes, why a full OS? Why not take the route like Wine or other such layers that make compatibility possible? Also, is there such a need for r…

A lot of these questions are answered here: https://ravynos.com/faq To summarize... There is a WINE-analogous project, called Darling: https://www.darlinghq.org/ The goal for ravynOS is to be analogous to ReactOS. Much like ReactOS and WINE, ravynOS and Darling share a lot of Cocoa code. For the problem of OpenStep implementations specifically, a bespoke software stack has the benefit of being able to put Mach messag…

> of course NeXT Mach is one of the most widely-ported kernels of all time...

actually the broader Mach kernel, not specifically the NeXT variant, is the one with a documented history of extensive portability

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#55

Why is every new OS project just a rehash of 60/70's tech. What about something new that actually attempts to move the field forward.

Microsoft came close with Midori but bailed out and canned the product just before it should have been released in alfa / beta 1

> Midori is an experimental managed code operating system that was in development until 2015. A joint effort by Microsoft and Microsoft Research, it had been reported to be a possible commercial implementation of the OS Singularity, a research project begun in 2003 to build a highly dependable OS whose kernel, device drivers, and application software would all be written in managed code. It was designed for concurrency, and would run a program spread across multiple nodes at once.[1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(operating_system)

https://joeduffyblog.com/2015/11/03/blogging-about-midori/

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#56

Why is every new OS project just a rehash of 60/70's tech. What about something new that actually attempts to move the field forward.

It takes an astronomical amount of work to not only write an OS but handle 30 years worth of both hardware, and lessons learned.

People do write new OSes from scratch all the time, you can see the result of no popularity/usage because they can't do much for even enthusiasts.

Not to mention, if you want users, you need apps, and that involves trying to run what already exists or making it as easy as possible to port. All of that shapes the OS.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#57
This is all nice and well, while https://www.puredarwin.org/wiki/#/news/Support-Cliff-Sekel

Wouldn't it be more natural if this project made use of XNU/Darwin... But with the way things are going, with XNU going more and more proprietary, I suppose FreeBSD is "close enough". In any case, there's nothing we can do about it but these "macOS" alternatives are too fragmented. I would love to see "The" macOS clone.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#58

Why is every new OS project just a rehash of 60/70's tech. What about something new that actually attempts to move the field forward.

Because writing even a remotely modern OS is really really hard. I speak from experience. Even getting old hardware from the 90s and early 00s to work is a pain. Then of course you have the more modern standards (although even SATA is still modern for some definition of modern, but AHCI is a nightmare), and then you have things like modern NICs and GPUs which has documentation that is very hard to find, or in the case of even modern Intel GPUs, documentation that is 13 plus volumes and is absolutely massive... And the list just goes on and on and on. Before you know it your codebase is 100k LoC and like 80-90 percent of it is device drivers alone. And if you thought all that was bad, wait until you get into ACPI...

Yeah. OS dev is, I think it's safe to say, the hardest and most difficult project a software engineer could do, right alongside a modern compiler if you ditched LLVM and decided to make your own backend.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#59

The RavynOS project would have a good chance at being binary compatible with Mac OSX if it copied all the Darwin libraries from the Darling project and used LLVM to generate all the appropriate dylibs. That's something I would support and contribute to. It could get to the point where it could run macOS console based applications. But if macOS binary compatibility is not the goal, then there's no need for a Mach-O lo…

Frankly I was a bit surprised that was not what they were doing. As a user I’d prefer a “mere” macOS UI on top of FreeBSD, so long as its quality is of the same. Use Darling as a compatibility loader, like WINE/Proton in SteamOS.

Re: New OS aims to provide (some) compatibility with macOS

#60
post #6

I've been paying attention to this project periodically over the past few years. It would be nice to have a FOSS clone of macOS, similar to how FreeDOS, ReactOS, and Haiku are FOSS clones of MS-DOS, Windows, and BeOS, respectively. The only thing is that this project has been quite slow going, which is similar to the histories of FreeDOS, ReactOS, and Haiku, where it took a long time for those projects to get to a us…

Sometimes it strikes me that something like this might be one of the better litmus tests for AI — if it’s really good enough to start 10x-ing engineers (let alone replacing them) it should be more common for more projects like this should begin to accelerate to practical usability. If not, maybe the productivity dividends are mostly shallow.

The problem is that many of these clean room reimplementations require contributors to not have seen any of the proprietary source. You can't guarantee that with ai because who knows which training data was used
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