Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure but to my knowledge you can call someone an asshole in the UK without being at risk of libel but calling someone a [pedophile/drug addict/similar] is (and IMO should) come with consequences if unsubstantiated
where do we land on motherf!cker? Taken literally it's accusing someone of a specific depraved act, but it's also clearly a term of abuse. My guess (not a lawyer!) is that once a term becomes more associated with abuse the more you're protected. Hustler basically called Jerry Falwell a motherf!cker but attributed to him a specific act, which they highlighted was satire and not to be taken seriously. Hustler lost in a…
Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
51–60 of 102 posts
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#52The original claim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Claims.pdf
The defence and counterclaim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Defence_Counterclaim.pdf
The associated schedule of harassment: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Schedule.pdf
The reply to the defence and counterclaim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Reply.pdf
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#53Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#54If this is how I feel about a discredited and largely uninfluential website, one can only imagine how Matthew feels given how widely read the unhinged claims on tuxmachines were against him.
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
> £70,000 in "damages" Damn, libel law is ridiculous.
Is it though? If someone posts a huge amount of articles about how you are various non-good things, then a employer might do a simple Google of your name on and think "Oh, actually, I don't think I want to hire that guy" that's worth quite a lot of money if that's a job that you actually wanted to get (and that results in a loss of income/opportunities) Typically speaking, you should probably only be saying things on…
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
UK libel law is very friendly to the plaintiff.
Its not as clear cut as it appears. Its expensive and painful to bring and defend a libel claim.
In the UK, the defendant must prove the statement was true.
In practice, this makes the UK setup pretty nasty (long, expensive, high risk), even when it arrives at the correct result. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#57I had never heard of techrights before. It seems to have a lot of angry/nasty articles. There's a huge amount of paranoia and hatred towards big tech. A lot of personal attacks against individuals and his former employer. I find myself questioning whether the authors are entirely sane. Can anyone confirm whether it is (or was?) really a respectable/serious free software site?
on the other hand, there's a reason multiple tech-focused communities ban their articles
i personally am happy to see this judgement, their attacks on mjg are unhinged and misguided
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> but ended up not being convincing enough not to cost them 70k pounds It might end up being more than 70k£ for them, given MG's legal fees may not be included in that price (I can't see any indication either way)
The legal fees are not included. They are probably very high. I'm not a lawyer but other similar cases have fees in the range of 150K to 300K. It's a life changing amount of money. The stakes are very high for both sides. Honestly it's really sad that this happened and I am not sure anyone has come out happy.
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
It also matters - or at least, should - whether you're expressing your opinion ("this guy is a fucking asshole"), vs. a claim of fact ("that diver is a pedophile"). I would not particularly want to express myself in a world where calling someone an asshole has a non-trivial chance of costing me £70k plus court fees.
What's the difference between your examples? Both sentences could be an opinion or a fact.
Meanwhile, a pedophile is something that a person capable of bringing a defamation suit could also literally be, and where a reasonable member of the audience for a description of them as such might (given the right other circumstances) view the description as a literal fact claim.
Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor
#60> Dr Garrett is chiefly accused of an online campaign of material which is (variously) criminal, illegal or offensive. The criminal matters alleged include cybercrime, hate crime, blackmail, issuing threats of violence or death, and matters adjacent to terrorism. Other illegal matters alleged include defamation, harassment and online abuse. Offensive matters alleged include material that is variously racist, antisemitic, misogynist, homophobic or otherwise hateful or discriminatory, sexually incontinent, or drugs-related. Dr Garrett is alleged to have waged this campaign through the medium of IRC ‘sockpuppet’ accounts – accounts under pseudonymous user nicknames intended to be a vehicle for distributing material anonymously and deniably. Many posts from these accounts are reproduced in the articles complained of. Dr Garrett is also repeatedly alleged to be an uncontrolled user of illegal class A drugs, principally crack cocaine.
The evidence for the allegations was apparently very thin (¶¶59–60):
> First, the defence relies on an incident a few years prior to the sockpuppet campaign, in which Dr Garrett admittedly registered himself online in two borrowed names for the purpose of making a rhetorical or satirical point about the owner of those names. Dr Garrett’s evidence is that he did so openly, and with the knowledge of the owner (who had himself vacated the names in order to borrow another user’s nickname – which was in part Dr Garrett’s point in also doing so). Dr Schestowitz clearly takes exception to that particular piece of theatricality as a major breach of netiquette in its own right, and regards it as a sign or symptom of propensity for sockpuppetry. But the incident in question, on its face, is plainly something quite different from the covert use of sockpuppet accounts to publish illegal or offensive material, and is not in my judgment capable of indicating any sort of propensity to do that.
> Second, it is said there was an incident in which Dr Garrett’s own named account and one of the sockpuppet accounts experienced simultaneous dropped connections. If established, that could indicate dual operation by a single individual. The evidence from the Claimant is that the dropped connections were not in fact simultaneous. I have no evidential basis for doing otherwise than proceeding on that basis. This pleading cannot in the circumstances support an inference of Dr Garrett’s authorship of the sockpuppet posts.
¶¶61–75 have further, even weaker evidence.