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What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

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Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#51

Post by Aurornis »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #30
tr45872267 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can and do. Private schools already exist.

AFAICT many private schools are worse than public schools. Parents put kids into private schools so that they get good grades and extra-curriculars to let them get into the good universities. So that's what private schools sell -- good grades. It's less important that they have the education that the good grades imply.

I have no doubt schools like that exist, but in every location I’ve lived and interacted with parents the private school educations they sent their kids to were no question a cut above.

I think this idea that private schools are no better are even worse is a wishful thinking narrative. Private schools, especially the more expensive ones, naturally select for parents who are more involved. More involved parents are highly correlated with better student outcomes. That alone means private schools are correlated with better outcomes. It honestly doesn’t really matter if it’s cause and effect or correlation, parents send their kids to private schools because they want them in the mix with other students selected into the higher performing environment.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#52

Post by Aurornis »

riskable wrote: post #46
triceratops wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> his goal to phase out gifted education programs Gifted education programs for kindergarten. I don't necessarily agree with that either but it's important to be accurate when talking about proposed policies. The man isn't talking about taking away AP algebra. Most kindergarteners still need to be told not to eat their boogers.

There is a well-known effect where segregating kids into gifted VS non-gifted harms the education of the non-gifted while only having a marginal impact on the gifted: https://ncrge.uconn.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/982/2019/04... Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing. In the long term, having gifted programs results in a handful of accelerated s…

> Basically, non-gifted kids learn from the gifted ones. It's that whole, "positive influence from peers" thing.

In other words, let’s drag the smart students down, disallow them a better education, and instead force them to teach their peers because we don’t think their teachers are doing a good job?

This is a terrible way to solve a problem.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#54

Post by nathan_compton »

Theodores wrote: post #27

How much mathematics is needed anyway? In the day job, how many people have to use maths skills beyond arithmetic? What about trigonometry? Differential equations? Integration and calculus? To be honest, if I am using Boolean Logic then that might as well be 'advanced mathematics', far beyond the comprehension of non-coders. Even simple trigonometry isn't so simple to most people. Clearly we need some people on the p…

A truly epic weird take.

My weird take is this: calculus and other sorts of advanced mathematics are cultural artifacts as much as they are tools and people should be exposed to them more or less for the same reasons that we are exposed to Shakespeare or the history of world religions: they are beautiful, and learning them changes us in positive ways.

One thing I've learned after most of a lifetime being smart is that being smart barely matters. It doesn't matter whether people are good at math or bad at it or smart. Most people never achieve fluency in most subjects. But children deserve to be taught math as a matter of basic dignity and eudemonia. The attitude that education is a pragmatic thing meant to achieve some end other than enrichment of the person is why the US is so fucked.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#55

Post by notorious_pgb »

gizajob wrote: post #42
adzm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both are fine. The singular form "math" is predominant in the States. But, notably, not "mathematic"

Maths is the singular form in English speaking countries.

Not in the US.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#56

Post by Aurornis »

mlboss wrote: post #45
TechRemarker wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine still will be all the advanced tracks but will be only reserved for those with the resources to afford it and seemingly further the divide.

I don’t think it is about resources. Growing up in 3rd world country I have zero resources. It is the drive of student and higher standards from parents and teachers that matters. Everybody is just getting soft.

> I don’t think it is about resources. Growing up in 3rd world country I have zero resources.

In America many parents do have resources, though, and they will spend those on private schools, tutoring, or home schooling.

> It is the drive of student and higher standards from parents and teachers that matters.

These proposals restrict the teachers and disallow teaching advanced subjects to students with drive to learn them.

You can’t say it’s up to the students and teachers while also holding back the students and restricting the teachers.

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#57

Post by tr45872267 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #30
tr45872267 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can and do. Private schools already exist.

AFAICT many private schools are worse than public schools. Parents put kids into private schools so that they get good grades and extra-curriculars to let them get into the good universities. So that's what private schools sell -- good grades. It's less important that they have the education that the good grades imply.

They do perform better on average

>The average private school mean reading score was 14.7 points higher than the average public school mean reading score, corresponding to an effect size of .41 (the ratio of the absolute value of the estimated difference to the standard deviation of the NAEP fourth-grade reading score distribution). After adjusting for selected student characteristics, the difference in means was near zero and not significant.

For math:

>The average private school mean mathematics score was 7.8 points higher than the average public school mean mathematics score, corresponding to an effect size of .29. After adjusting for selected student characteristics, the difference in means was -4.5 and significantly different from zero. (Note that a negative difference implies that the average school mean was higher for public schools.)

In the context of the specific discussion here, it doesn't really matter that the effect goes away when controling for selected student characteristics. First off this was from 2006, we would have to see if any of that has changed. The 2024 numbers are here[1]. But in any case they are not worse than public schools, although they may be no better or slightly worse than a public school in a rich neighborhood or similar.

[0] https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pubs/studies/2006461.a...

[1] https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboa...

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#59

Post by Ekaros »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #38
ceedan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a publicly traded company that is enslaved to it's investors, growth, profit and quarterly reporting.

The more time passes the more I hate publicly traded companies. I feel like the stock market rots companies.

Also the same seems to extend to things when private companies discussed. Nothing is enough you cannot be happy with company making million in post tax profit a year. Next year you must do two million, then 4 and 8 and so on... Even not attempting this is somehow failure for some people...

Re: What happens when even college students can't do math anymore?

#60

Post by webdevver »

NiloCK wrote: post #48

> “Who is going to trust somebody who got a degree in airline engineering who doesn’t know how to think through a problem without a computer telling them the answer?” Years ago when I was working in education (Canadian public schools) our school board had a conference ahead of the school year. The keynote was an inclusive-ed researcher / consultant / speaker who told an anecdote of how they had successfully lobbied f…

>They seem to earnestly believe that it isn't an actual tool but a gatekeeping mechanism devised by autistic persons to humiliate normies.

it should be that, though.

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