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Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

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Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#51

Post by freehunter »

mtgx wrote: post #50
cooldeal wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that's plain wrong. Microsoft is demanding that only for Windows RT tablets. The same manufacturer is free to make tablets that run Android or Ubuntu or whatever.

Apparently, that's not true. Atom Clover Trail devices will not support anything but Windows 8, and I don't think it's just a driver issue. It's a bootloader issue, too: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/27/intels-clover-trail-is-a-...

That's a decision between Intel and Microsoft on how to make an x86 computer that is optimized for Windows 8. It has nothing to do with a Microsoft policy. You can install Windows 8 on any x86 hardware you want alongside any other x86 compatible OS of your choice.

Let's be clear: the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS. This is the exact opposite of what people here are arguing. There is a lot of FUD being spread, and it's just not true.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#52

Post by rbanffy »

freehunter wrote: post #51
mtgx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, that's not true. Atom Clover Trail devices will not support anything but Windows 8, and I don't think it's just a driver issue. It's a bootloader issue, too: http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/27/intels-clover-trail-is-a-...

That's a decision between Intel and Microsoft on how to make an x86 computer that is optimized for Windows 8. It has nothing to do with a Microsoft policy. You can install Windows 8 on any x86 hardware you want alongside any other x86 compatible OS of your choice. Let's be clear: the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS…

> the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS

This is not true for ARM-based devices. Any ARM-based device that comes with Windows pre-installed will have its bootloader locked and only be able to run Windows.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#53

Post by rbanffy »

freehunter wrote: post #47
rbanffy wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft is the only company demanding the ARM devices other companies make to be locked down. What Apple does to its hardware is their problem, but it's not Microsoft's business to demand hardware manufacturers to deliberately kill competition on software (which would, ultimately, benefit both manufacturers and end-users).

I'm not sure that's an apples to apples (so to speak) comparison. How is it any different with Apple not only locking down the software but also locking out any competing hardware versus Microsoft letting multiple partners make hardware with locked down software? It patently is Microsoft's business to demand hardware makers follow the rules of their software agreement. If hardware makers don't like it, they can make…

Microsoft doesn't make its own hardware like Apple does. What Microsoft is trying to do is to make it difficult for hardware manufacturers to build devices that can run both Windows or other operating system. When you buy an ARM device with Windows preinstalled, it'll not be able to run any other OS. When you buy an ARM device that can run Android (or Ubuntu, or WebOS, or ChromeOS) you won't be able to install Windows on it. Unlike any x86 PC, you have to make a choice before you buy the device. You just won't be able to buy an ARM-based tablet, notebook or desktop computer with Windows (paying for it) and run something else. Microsoft hopes that, confronted with this choice, users will opt to lock themselves into a "safe" option.

This is Microsoft leveraging its Windows monopoly to pressure hardware manufacturers into fragmenting the market in ways that restrict competition.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#54

Post by freehunter »

rbanffy wrote: post #52
freehunter wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a decision between Intel and Microsoft on how to make an x86 computer that is optimized for Windows 8. It has nothing to do with a Microsoft policy. You can install Windows 8 on any x86 hardware you want alongside any other x86 compatible OS of your choice. Let's be clear: the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS…

> the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS This is not true for ARM-based devices. Any ARM-based device that comes with Windows pre-installed will have its bootloader locked and only be able to run Windows.

True, but since this particular sub-thread is about an x86 processor, I don't think I'm wrong.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#55

Post by freehunter »

rbanffy wrote: post #53
freehunter wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's an apples to apples (so to speak) comparison. How is it any different with Apple not only locking down the software but also locking out any competing hardware versus Microsoft letting multiple partners make hardware with locked down software? It patently is Microsoft's business to demand hardware makers follow the rules of their software agreement. If hardware makers don't like it, they can make…

Microsoft doesn't make its own hardware like Apple does. What Microsoft is trying to do is to make it difficult for hardware manufacturers to build devices that can run both Windows or other operating system. When you buy an ARM device with Windows preinstalled, it'll not be able to run any other OS. When you buy an ARM device that can run Android (or Ubuntu, or WebOS, or ChromeOS) you won't be able to install Window…

The problem with ARM is, there's no standardized platform like there is on x86. You need SoC specific drivers for every chip, and in some cases these are only available to hardware partners. This is an ARM problem.

Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. Mainly because it doesn't have a Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. And Microsoft does make their own hardware. The only difference is, they also license their OS out to third party partners. You want to use their software, you agree to their license. Don't like it? Run Android (most of the world does).

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#56

Post by rbanffy »

freehunter wrote: post #54
rbanffy wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the rules for Windows 8 certification is that manufacturers must allow the user to disable secure boot and allow them to install another OS This is not true for ARM-based devices. Any ARM-based device that comes with Windows pre-installed will have its bootloader locked and only be able to run Windows.

True, but since this particular sub-thread is about an x86 processor, I don't think I'm wrong.

As far as I remember, it started with a comment on locked down tablets. Since the x86 tablets with W8 won't necessarily be locked down, I assumed you were talking about ARM-based ones.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#57

Post by rbanffy »

freehunter wrote: post #55
rbanffy wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft doesn't make its own hardware like Apple does. What Microsoft is trying to do is to make it difficult for hardware manufacturers to build devices that can run both Windows or other operating system. When you buy an ARM device with Windows preinstalled, it'll not be able to run any other OS. When you buy an ARM device that can run Android (or Ubuntu, or WebOS, or ChromeOS) you won't be able to install Window…

The problem with ARM is, there's no standardized platform like there is on x86. You need SoC specific drivers for every chip, and in some cases these are only available to hardware partners. This is an ARM problem. Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. Mainly because it doesn't have a Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. And Microsoft does make their own hardware. The only dif…

> Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market

Really? So, Windows software won;'t need a recompile to run on ARM?

> The only difference is, they also license their OS out to third party partners.

As long as they limit competition and prevent the devices from running anything but Windows.

> You want to use their software, you agree to their license.

Except that it doesn't work like that when you try to leverage the power one monopoly affords you to prevent competition in another market.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#58

Post by freehunter »

rbanffy wrote: post #56
freehunter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but since this particular sub-thread is about an x86 processor, I don't think I'm wrong.

As far as I remember, it started with a comment on locked down tablets. Since the x86 tablets with W8 won't necessarily be locked down, I assumed you were talking about ARM-based ones.

mtgx moved the conversation to Intel Atom processors.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#59

Post by freehunter »

rbanffy wrote: post #57
freehunter wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with ARM is, there's no standardized platform like there is on x86. You need SoC specific drivers for every chip, and in some cases these are only available to hardware partners. This is an ARM problem. Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. Mainly because it doesn't have a Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market. And Microsoft does make their own hardware. The only dif…

> Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market Really? So, Windows software won;'t need a recompile to run on ARM? > The only difference is, they also license their OS out to third party partners. As long as they limit competition and prevent the devices from running anything but Windows. > You want to use their software, you agree to their license. Except that it doesn't work like that whe…

You're being intentionally dense in order to spread FUD about Windows 8. What you're saying is demonstrably untrue. Whether you want to accept that or not, it'd be helpful if you refrained from joining a conversation if you don't have anything constructive to say.

Re: Minecraft creator attacks Microsoft's Windows 8 plan

#60

Post by rbanffy »

freehunter wrote: post #59
rbanffy wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft cannot leverage its Windows monopoly in the ARM tablet market Really? So, Windows software won;'t need a recompile to run on ARM? > The only difference is, they also license their OS out to third party partners. As long as they limit competition and prevent the devices from running anything but Windows. > You want to use their software, you agree to their license. Except that it doesn't work like that whe…

You're being intentionally dense in order to spread FUD about Windows 8. What you're saying is demonstrably untrue. Whether you want to accept that or not, it'd be helpful if you refrained from joining a conversation if you don't have anything constructive to say.

> What you're saying is demonstrably untrue.

Citation needed.

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