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Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

elifesciences.org

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Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#51

Post by underlipton »

throwaway2562 wrote: post #30
mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

An absurd take. The ‘trauma’ people, baggage handlers de nos jours, have already weaponised the phenomenon for political points, before we even know definitively if it exists. Hey ho. Incidentally, nobody yet I see has suggested that epigenetics could lead to better outcomes. I wonder why?

Me, once again tapping the, "If they had done genetic studies on the Dutch at the beginning of the 19th century, genetic patterns currently associated with exceptional adult height may have instead been associated with exceptional short stature," sign.

What social democracy does to a dude('s growth spurts). If people ever internalized that socioeconomic circumstances have material and profound effects on not only their own health and development, but also that of their children and children's children, both in the positive and negative direction... Man.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#52

Post by underlipton »

gopalv wrote: post #19
mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

> trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us The nurture part of it is already well established, this is the nature part of it. However, this is not a net-positive for the folks who already discriminate. The "faults in our genes" thinking assumes that this is not redeemable by policy changes, so it goes back to eugenics and usually suggests cutt…

I would think it's the opposite. Intervention is preventative of further sliding. The alternative - genocide - is expensive; they're generally a luxury of states benefiting from a theft-based windfall.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#53

Post by morkalork »

Aurornis wrote: post #48
mmaunder wrote: post #14

This relates to policy because it addresses the question of whether we carry epigenetic baggage from prior generations. For example, trauma that our parents, or grandparents experienced could lead to behavior modifications and poorer outcomes in us. If that is the case, it has profound public policy implications.

There is a vast gap between current epigenetic inheritance science in humans and all of the theories that epigenetic inheritance is a substantial carrier of inter generational trauma. We’re still trying to figure out how much, if any, epigenetic inheritance applies to humans. If we did find some evidence, it wouldn’t be as simple as declaring that the trauma of previous generations harmed offspring. For example, it c…

There's some long running research on the effect in humans like this:

https://theconversation.com/moms-prenatal-hardship-turns-bab...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26098974/

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#54

Post by JumpCrisscross »

roughly wrote: post #35

Epigenetics is one of those things that seems wild until you pull the camera back a bit. A cell is affected by and responds to its surroundings - this is not controversial. In eukaryotes, this is usually done by way of altering gene expression - up- or down-regulation by means of chemical markers on the cell’s DNA which are created or removed by enzymes which are activated or deactivated by certain substances in the…

Does meiosis involve a reset mechanism of any kind?

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#55

Post by JumpCrisscross »

rolph wrote: post #44
dash2 wrote: post #42

1. Pretty obviously, epigenetics in bacteria provides only very weak support for epigenetics in humans. 2. The case against epigenetics in humans is laid out nicely by Razib Khan: https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig... 3. I've been to a few conferences which mixed geneticists with (human) epigenetics guys, and I have never been impressed with the quality of their work. Lots of different measu…

here is some reading for you: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12204592/ https://sciencevivid.com/epigenetics/

Throwing out a fundamentals text is valid. But you need to point out where OP made a mistake that's so elementary it requires going back to the basics for it to not come across as low dismissal.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#56

Post by rolph »

shevy-java wrote: post #8

So Lamarck wasn't entirely incorrect either. Darwin would have been fascinated by these results.

viewing genetics as dogmatic darwinist purity isnt the state of the art.

current genetic theory is a synthesis, loosely referred to as neo-darwinism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Darwinism

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#57

Post by rolph »

macleginn wrote: post #36
ch4s3 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really see that as anti-Darwinian. Those genes successfully attach themselves to a new organism and provide advantages such that they are selected for in the population.

The selection is classical, but the mutations are supposed to be random, not skewed towards more useful genetic variants. One can speculate that a purely random (and otherwise neutral, say) prior mutation led to this directionality, but the actual resulting mechanism is AFAIK still unknown.

plasmids

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmid

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#58

Post by thfuran »

capitol_ wrote: post #31
phoronixrly wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer should be simple, too -- either yes or no. OP did not imply proving it would be simple.

I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to claim your 1 million dollars from the Clay Mathematics Institute by just answering yes or no.

That's why I'm going to go with a friend. I'll say yes, he'll say no, and we'll split the winnings. Easy money.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#59

Post by Aurornis »

morkalork wrote: post #53
Aurornis wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a vast gap between current epigenetic inheritance science in humans and all of the theories that epigenetic inheritance is a substantial carrier of inter generational trauma. We’re still trying to figure out how much, if any, epigenetic inheritance applies to humans. If we did find some evidence, it wouldn’t be as simple as declaring that the trauma of previous generations harmed offspring. For example, it c…

There's some long running research on the effect in humans like this: https://theconversation.com/moms-prenatal-hardship-turns-bab... https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26098974/

Those are articles about maternal stress during pregnancy.

The trans-generational epigenetic inheritance proponents claim that trauma can induce lasting generational effects spanning multiple levels of descendants, even if it doesn’t occur during to the mother during pregnancy.

The paper this HN submission is talking about claims to have found an effect like this that persists for 4 generations.

A key problem with the inter generational trauma proponents is that they presume the effects will only be negative. However, studies like this one showed a positive adaptation. Evolutionarily, it would make more sense if epigenetic mechanisms generally conferred benefits and learned adaptations, which goes against the narratives that anything negative would produce lasting negative effects. It’s not entirely that simple, but it reveals why the intergenerational trauma equals epigenetic inheritance people are starting with a conclusion and trying to get the science to fit their narrative, which is backward from how it should be.

Re: Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance: the story of learned avoidance

#60

Post by rolph »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55
rolph wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here is some reading for you: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/chapter/edited-volume/... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12204592/ https://sciencevivid.com/epigenetics/

Throwing out a fundamentals text is valid. But you need to point out where OP made a mistake that's so elementary it requires going back to the basics for it to not come across as low dismissal.

the entire OP displays a lack of knowledge regarding epigenetic mechanisms, as well as a lack ot knowledge base required to make an informed appraisal.

the knowledge base required, is extensive for a non biologist, and made difficult to attain without experience interpreting decades long synthesis.

thus the fundamentals are provided, should anyone desire breadcrumbs pursuant to independant edifiction.

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