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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#51

Post by BobbyTables2 »

vatsachak wrote: post #8
Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Have you travelled Europe? Other than in some countries like Germany or Ireland the job situation is quite bleak. For example, look at average wages vs living costs in Madrid

Always did find it curious that Spain seems to have few suburbs. Just apartment complexes up to the city’s edge and then farmland…

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#52

Post by tschellenbach »

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups.

Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensive.

But the media just doesn't report on it. You don't notice it unless you live in both places. Still a beautiful country though and USA has it's own problems as well.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#53

Post by [deleted] »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. How do Europeans get rich enough to have that life you dream about in Europe once you're rich enough from making money in America to move there?

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B…

[deleted]

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#54

Post by boc »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

The US actually has a series of social safety nets. There are massive government programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security which provide real, measurable safety nets to the most vulnerable in society. There are also hundreds of thousands of charities, churches, and non-profit organizations that donate time, money, and resources to assist families going through hard times. There is also the US Military, which serves as a government-backed career path for millions of high-school graduates.

I think you're thinking that the US got ahead through exploiting labor. You missed the biggest piece of it though - the US welcomes (or at least until recently used to welcome) massive amounts of highly-educated immigrants from all over the world, and crucially has built a culture and society where those people can feel "American" fairly quickly in a way that they would never if they moved to Switzerland or France.

Being able to brain-drain the entire world and then smartly arm those people with unlimited capital to build their companies and dreams is the "unfair" American advantage. It isn't unethical, it's just not something European society supports. That, and the 30-year mortgage.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#55

Post by thiago_fm »

The measure of "output" is the problem. Output can be increased by more expenditures, not a real tangible benefit for the society.

The US had 6.3% GDP deficit in 2024, meanwhile it's 3% in the EU. The US is growing on debt, and on its way to become Japan.

Even on EU's worst debt crisis times, it didn't run such a big deficit as the US.

Add in the fact that the EU has accepted the Meta/Google tax in advertising, among other US' interests businesses. Which it can change its mind and get such businesses in trouble.

Not to forget about shale oil. The US became the biggest oil producer BY A WIDE MARGIN.

But it's all based on a $60 barrel, if the oil barrel goes back to $40, you'd see most of those companies filing bankrupcy and trillions disappearing. Here's another industry that the US government will need subsidize further with more US debt and taxpayers money.

There's a lot of risk attached to the US' recent growth, people would be naive to not consider them. We'd have to see if that trend lives for longer, and what are the tradeoffs.

The EU could decide to also destroy its country, feed people a lot of corn syrup and diabetes, and provide them GLP-1 drugs to increase its GDP.

Or just make the european believe that big cars are great, and they need a 5 bedroom house for 3 people.

All this would push that holy productivity number UP, but does it make rational sense to do that? Nope.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#56

Post by bilbo0s »

robtherobber wrote: post #4
Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Believe me, it amazes many of us Europeans too. We have a real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense disbenefits of such an approach), and yet here we are.

Problem is that there's also a "real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense [benefits to the billionaires] of such an approach)". Just as in the US, the billionaires wield enormous influence. Maybe not quite as much, but pretty close. So as long as there are benefits to the wealthy of these policies, I think the Europeans will pursue them. (At least until the French start doing that thing that the French do when things get too unfair in this regard. And then the cycle will start all over again.)

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#57

Post by thiago_fm »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #35
groundzeros2015 wrote: post #19

Japan had a similar turn in the 80s, but unlike Europe they seem to have more of an alternative view of society and future. Europe seems to effectively follow American culture and practices with a dampener. Being America with healthcare and college funds has not been much of a vision for the future.

Japan just took out 300% of debt to GDP. There wasn't anything special. It was just debt.

If you look at US' debt trajectory, it's on its way there -- and it will be quick!

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#58

Post by FredPret »

stego-tech wrote: post #26

I hate these hit pieces against the EU, but I’ll give OP credit that theirs actually has a mixture of credulous proposals (Federal preemption, ending directives, commercial court) alongside the usual pro-billionaire insanity (a 28th regime just for business? Removing regulations on product standards? Are you fucking kidding me here? ). Europe has its fair share of issues, but a lot of them can still be traced back to…

> “Europeans… so much happier than… Americans”

Citation needed, and not to a Facebook Quiz-tier “how happy are you on a scale of ten” questionnaire.

My experience is obviously anecdotal, but it is quite varied, and the exact opposite.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#59

Post by hexbin010 »

vatsachak wrote: post #49
mothballed wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just live like a European? The cost of a Latvian investment visa is something like the price of an average new car. It's obtainable to most anyone gainfully employed in skilled labor in the USA. Virtually anyone here that wants one can get it and move there.

Okay, besides being of Latvian descent, why would one want to move from the US to Latvia?

Exactly. I think people think it means you get an EU passport immediately or something and can spend 364 days a year in any EU country?? You only get a Schengen visa and are restricted to 180 days total outside of Latvia, inside the Schengen. But you can do that without a Latvian residence permit...

AIUI it's 10 years to get an EU - sorry, Latvian - passport and for an individual year to count towards that you need 183+ days a year in Latvia

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#60

Post by toomuchtodo »

BobbyTables2 wrote: post #46
toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do not need to because their social systems are structured around public goods and services for humans instead of profits. Americans have to get rich to buy into a functional system, because they were unlucky enough to be born on the wrong soil. My health insurance for a family of 4 in Spain is $2k/year. In the US, $20k+ (premiums, copays, etc). Why? Combined market cap of UHC and CVS as of this comment is $391B…

Yes, but can you eat out once a week without breaking the budget on a European salary?

We are perhaps optimizing for different things. Dining out is not important to me versus affordable, accessible healthcare, for example.
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