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Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

nikolaihlebowitsh.substack.com

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Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#51

Post by verall »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #36
brudgers wrote: post #9

Plumbing, HVAC and other skilled trades operate almost entirely B2B, not B2C. The very premise of this article is why that is the case...people who don't understand what is required, what is good, and how construction operates shopping solely on price with unreasonable expectations. That $22k quote? That's how a company can pay for capacity during peak demand...i.e. paying skilled workers enough to make extra long ho…

So then where are the premium HVAC companies for the residential market charging a higher price but offering credible guarantees?

You have to find someone who is local and stands by their work (this can be tough but talk to neighbors/friends/etc). Then treat them well by always paying a tip over the quoted price. Honest businesspeople exist, they will remember your generosity, stand by their work, and go the extra mile to make it right if they make a mistake.

It's relationships, not legal guarantees. There's not enough paper in the world to protect you from a dishonest contractor or tradesman. Finding someone honest and then overpaying is the premium option.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#52

Post by buildsjets »

srmatto wrote: post #12

I can't comment on this idea but I will say that I would have expected press fittings to have brought down the cost of plumbing because they don't require soldering up to certain diameter. But they don't seem to have had any impact on the cost of plumbing despite not requiring as much skill. https://www.ferguson.com/content/ideas-and-learning-center/t...

Perhaps because you do not do plumbing yourself, you do not realize that making the pipe connections is a trivial part of the job. I learned how to sweat a copper pipe in about 15 minutes of training. You can learn it off YouTube. It is not a high-skilled operation.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#53

Post by [deleted] »

verall wrote: post #51
MichaelZuo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then where are the premium HVAC companies for the residential market charging a higher price but offering credible guarantees?

You have to find someone who is local and stands by their work (this can be tough but talk to neighbors/friends/etc). Then treat them well by always paying a tip over the quoted price. Honest businesspeople exist, they will remember your generosity, stand by their work, and go the extra mile to make it right if they make a mistake. It's relationships, not legal guarantees. There's not enough paper in the world to pro…

[deleted]

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#54

Post by mothballed »

buildsjets wrote: post #52
srmatto wrote: post #12

I can't comment on this idea but I will say that I would have expected press fittings to have brought down the cost of plumbing because they don't require soldering up to certain diameter. But they don't seem to have had any impact on the cost of plumbing despite not requiring as much skill. https://www.ferguson.com/content/ideas-and-learning-center/t...

Perhaps because you do not do plumbing yourself, you do not realize that making the pipe connections is a trivial part of the job. I learned how to sweat a copper pipe in about 15 minutes of training. You can learn it off YouTube. It is not a high-skilled operation.

I don't think DIYer even bother learning how to sweat copper pipe anymore. I plumbed an entire house myself using pex for the supply. All I had to know was how to press the trigger to expand the pipe.

The only copper I had was a copper stub for the toilet supply, but I used pex expansion to terminate there too because they make copper-pex stubs.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#55

Post by buildsjets »

mothballed wrote: post #34
bickfordb wrote: post #29

It's typical for those trades to have extensive licensing requirements. In my state (OR) plumber and HVAC licenses require four years of apprenticeship. Additionally the HVAC trade has gatekeeping around the EPA refrigerant licensing and supply distributors/manufacturers who will only sell to contractors.

I got my EPA 608 license from like two days of cramming and an online proctored test. Skillcat, was like $0 or $50 if you want the card. Can order unlimited refrigerants straight to my doorstep. No place around me to install mini-splits for cheap so I just got the EPA 'licensing' and did it myself. As long as you don't offer the service commercially, in most states, I think that's all they need.

I also got my 608 cert online for $25. I found no real need to study or cram, most of the answers were common-sense or easily googleable real-time. I got a $40,000 quote to install a 4 zone heat pump system. It was roughly $6500 worth of equipment, $500 worth of tools, a $25 EPA cert, and 2 weekends of my time. Basic carpentry and electrical tasks, some minor special skill development to get the copper flares just right, a nitrogen pressure test, vacuum evacuate and chill.

These systems were designed so that people with a basic education in third world countries can install them. It's not rocket science.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#56

Post by binoct »

mothballed wrote: post #41
MichaelZuo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then where are the premium HVAC companies for the residential market charging a higher price but offering credible guarantees?

Best I can do is $1000 to change a capacitor that any tom dick or harry could do, and $10,000 to install a mini split that I literally did myself for $1000 in tools and watching 8 hours of youtube. The industry is largely a scam. There is no reason why you need a brick and mortar fixed business for many HVAC tasks. On one occasion, I knew exactly what was wrong but as a tenant so I could not perform the work myself.…

Calling the industry largely a scam is pretty strong. Of course for the small minority of technically competent people with interest and time it will always be cheaper to do something yourself rather than pay a business to accomplish the same thing. But most people cannot/do not want to do it themselves, and regulations are there at least partially to help protect them against the house-fire-waiting-to-happen untrained handyman.

Sure a bunch of businesses opportunistically up-charge, some I'm sure are predatory, and there are obviously efficiencies to improve, but overall scam it is not.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#58

Post by brudgers »

mothballed wrote: post #49
brudgers wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber Eats does not have to deal with past taco installations. HVAC repair does.

Honestly if you use greer or some budget-tier mini splits it's easier just to install a new one every time than to fix them. It would work for 99% of residential cases and be cheaper. A lot of the 'real' HVAC companies will basically push you to buy new shit if anything is broken anyways, so may as well use that model in a way that's actually economically efficient and just have teams of essentially unskilled unlicen…

If you already have a mini-split, that has some truth. Most AC's in Houston are not mini-splits.

And the segment of the homeowner market that takes pride in doing the cheapest possible improvement is limited and not one that makes a lot of business sense to cater to as an HVAC company. Because not only does that segment not open its wallets wide (if at all) but also because cheap HVAC systems are cheap in part because of the places that costs are cut such as noise and manufacturer support.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that people don't get joy from the noisy installation they installed themselves and maybe even joy from dealing with the lack of manufacturer support for that unit.

Only that people don't find delight in the crappy unit they paid to have installed once they realize it;s crappy. And as an HVAC business, that's your problem and not one worth having.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#59

Post by mothballed »

buildsjets wrote: post #55
mothballed wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my EPA 608 license from like two days of cramming and an online proctored test. Skillcat, was like $0 or $50 if you want the card. Can order unlimited refrigerants straight to my doorstep. No place around me to install mini-splits for cheap so I just got the EPA 'licensing' and did it myself. As long as you don't offer the service commercially, in most states, I think that's all they need.

I also got my 608 cert online for $25. I found no real need to study or cram, most of the answers were common-sense or easily googleable real-time. I got a $40,000 quote to install a 4 zone heat pump system. It was roughly $6500 worth of equipment, $500 worth of tools, a $25 EPA cert, and 2 weekends of my time. Basic carpentry and electrical tasks, some minor special skill development to get the copper flares just ri…

Yeah if you just do part 1 you could probably google real-time.

The universal is proctored, so you have to have the *FCs and limits somewhat memorized, it's definitely just rote memorization and if you have exceptional memory you might just remember it all the first time without any 'study'. A person like me with relatively average intelligence would probably take a couple days, but it's definitely a lot better than needing 4 years of HVAC apprenticeship or something.

Technically you need part 2 or universal to do most home HVAC systems, but part 1 (or even an EPA 609 probably) would get you the refrigerants, so it's largely a moot point.

Re: Why is there no Uber for plumbing/HVAC? (and why there ought to be)

#60

Post by brudgers »

gruez wrote: post #40
brudgers wrote: post #9

Plumbing, HVAC and other skilled trades operate almost entirely B2B, not B2C. The very premise of this article is why that is the case...people who don't understand what is required, what is good, and how construction operates shopping solely on price with unreasonable expectations. That $22k quote? That's how a company can pay for capacity during peak demand...i.e. paying skilled workers enough to make extra long ho…

>In the world where people have reasonable options, relationships matter and relationships are non-fungible. What type of homeowner hires their plumber/HVAC guy based on "relationships"? They might only need a visit only once in a few years, so the idea of "relationships" is laughable.

The kind of homeowner who pays a reasonable rate to get their AC repaired during a Houston heatwave.

The first AC guy at my last house and us had kids in the same third grade classroom. Later when his business changed to commercial work, Charlie put us on to a semi-retired AC guy who kept us running for several years until we moved.

By the way, Charlie was recommended by our neighbor two doors down when we moved in.

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