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What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

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Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#51
post #27

Will LineageOS and other similar ROMs have this limitation as well, or will it be baked into the hardware?

They will not, but the hardware will (as it already does) do its best to stop you from installing LineageOS and other similar ROMs.

In my opinion, the biggest problem that comes with this, is the fact that google play independent apps will become A LOT less popular. To a point where alternative roms are even less interesting to people which in return makes developing apps for them even less interesting.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#52
post #24
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

Mobile is where it’s bad. It never took hold fully on desktop since desktop is used for development and too many other things.

PC was an anomaly thanks to IBM not being able to go with their plans.

On UNIX, Sun was the vendor that introduced the concept of SDK SKU, thus for having developer tools, an additional SKU had to be bought, and the until then largely ignored GCC sundenly got a new focus of attention.

Mainframes and micros always needed having a group of folks from the vendor professional services for specific kinds of configurations.

I still remeber working on traditional timesharing UNIX systems, one single server for all teams, what you get to do is decided by IT for your role.

There are plenty of examples from the past on how this has been happening already.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#53

Will LineageOS and other similar ROMs have this limitation as well, or will it be baked into the hardware?

Roms face a different problem: bootloader locking. But the more Android changes drastically, the harder it is to integrate the AOSP changes into the different open projects

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#54
post #6

Real world parallels to this abound. You cannot build whatever house you want on your own property, for example; it must meet strict building codes and be verifiably structurally sound. What ever happened to building what you wanted on your own land?

Because there are liabilities issues for others. What if your structure falls down on visitors? You cant repair some heath damage or death. Since this kind of problems is easily prevented by professional review, legal constraints make lots of sense.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#55
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is largely about phones, where the barrier to install a truly open Linux system are high and getting higher.

There are plenty of smartphone companies locking down their bootloaders, but there are others that will let you unlock your bootloader by just running the basic command. A much bigger problem for running Linux on phones is that standard Linux runs like crap on phones. It doesn't have the mainline driver support amd64 computers have, and the battery life optimizations that make Android usable need to be reimplemented…

Have an optimised web browser for the OS and you don't really have to worry about 3rd party software performance any more or not that much

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#56
post #21
post #6

Real world parallels to this abound. You cannot build whatever house you want on your own property, for example; it must meet strict building codes and be verifiably structurally sound. What ever happened to building what you wanted on your own land?

That is not universally true; even today in some states there are areas (and perhaps even entire states) where building codes do not apply, sometimes even to the main structure. Often you only need to comply over a certain size, for human habitation, or to connect to utilities. The best argument “for” building codes is the same as “for” secure platforms; that people should be able to expect a certain level of compete…

Regulations are at least as old as Code of Hammurabi, naturally they have become less drastic throughout the centuries.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#57
The TPM and secure boot conversation for gaming has shifted my perspective a lot. This technology is having a positive impact on player experience. It has become quite clear to me that there are wheels that will squeak regardless of the amount of lubricant used. I've begun to consider the position of being able to run anything my way at any time on any machine as being a bit extremist. Especially, in a game theoretic setting with other participants expecting some degree of fair play.

I am allowed to own multiple computers. Many do. I've got a Linux hand held, a windows desktop, an iPhone and a MacBook. All with varying degrees of freedom and function. I don't feel like I'm constrained right now.

HDCP is an example of the other thing in my mind. It adds zero value to anyone's experience. Any potential value add is hypothetical. You can't survey a person after they watch an unprotected film and receive a meaningful signal. It's pure downside for the customer. There's no such thing as competitive Netflix lobbies.

If I want to run arbitrary code, I'll do it on my windows box or fire up a Linux VM in the cloud somewhere. I don't need weird problems on my phone. If you are trying to touch all platforms at once, try using the goddamn web. I've been able to avoid Apple enterprise distribution hell with a little bit of SPA magic and InTune configuration for business customers. For B2C I just don't see it anymore. You need to follow the rules if you want to be in the curated environments.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, I don’t think I’m excusing it at all and your argument hinges on the restriction of software running on hardware to be evil. I wouldn’t describe it that way. I think it’s frustrating certainly but I don’t think you have an inalienable right to run code of your choice. I would characterize it more as Google is responding to the needs of the vast majority of its users, most of whom do not care to run unsign…

> I don’t think you have an inalienable right to run code of your choice > more importantly crack down on those who would pirate their, software. If you represent the interests of corporations then try leading with that next time. > Escape hatches are great, but each also represents a security weakness waiting to be exploited. Besides being a broad statement that lacks citations and no doubt relies on contrived examp…

> If you represent the interests of corporations then try leading with that next time.

I don't. I'm just saying Google and whichever boogeyman you'd care to slot into position 2 share the same interests. Far more than you or me and Google anyway.

> Besides being a broad statement that lacks citations and no doubt relies on contrived examples where this was implemented poorly

To a laymen user, any software that is running without code signing has a much much much higher chance of being something that has gone wrong rather than Joe Public found a cool image editing app that doesn't want to be distributed via the Play store. Are there exceptions? Sure, I'm certainly a big one. Does that mean I don't understand Google's position here? No.

> it's also clearly a violation of the EU Digital Markets Act.

If true, they'll end up in court, same as Apple did.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#60
This idea that protecting users is worth the cost of giving up your ownership rights is fallacious.

Protecting 1 million grannies is an entirely different risk class than the security implications of stopping everyone from using their devices as they see fit.

Protecting 1 million grannies means everyone loses ability to install apps that:

  -allow encrypted chat
  -allow use of privacy respecting software
  -download art/games/entertainment that is deemed inappropriate to unelected parties
  -use software to organize protests and track agents of hostile governments
  -download software that opposes monopolistic holds of controlling parties
Using Linux is also not a real choice. To access my bank and health services in my country, I require a mobile device that is remote attested by either Apple or Google which are American countries. Hell, it's becoming closer to reality that playing online video games requires remote attestation either to "prevent" cheating or for age verification.

Thus the risk widens to the sovereign control a nation has over its own services. A US president could attempt to force Google and Apple to shutoff citizen access of banks and health services of an entire nation. Merely the threat could give them leverage in any sort of negotiations they might be in. For some nations in the future, the controlling nation may be China I imagine.

I think the real regulatory solution here is to break up monopoly practices. While the EU's DMA is all well and good in some ways, the EU is also pushing Chat Control... In a more fragmented market it becomes impossible for a bank or health service to mandate specific devices for access (they lose potential customers) so you could theoretically move to a device that doesn't do draconian style remote attestation that breaks if you go off the ranch. We need more surgically precise regulatory tools than sweeping legislation that would keep using alternatives like Linux or FreeBSD or whatever actually viable. It also makes it much harder for that same legislative body to enforce insane ideas like Chat Control.

The answer is not protect users from themselves. The answer is more freedom, with a legal framework that helps all users have more choices while helping victims acquire restitution.

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