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How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

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Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#51

Post by wahnfrieden »

mallomarmeasle wrote: post #44
webnrrd2k wrote: post #39

Taking melatonin has been mentioned several times in different threads here, and I just wanted to add my experience... I find that taking the minimal amount make a big difference here, and it's about 3 micro-grams (not milli-grams) for me. The trick is to get some liquid melatonin drops. There is a brand that has 3 milligrams per 30 drops as a recommended dosage, so I just take 3 or so drops and let them dissolve on…

As pointed out above me, 250-300 micrograms is what you likely meant. You might have to hunt for such low doses. I split a 1 mg tab in quarters. Repeated studies have shown that there is not an increase in efficacy, but there is an increase in adverse effects when doses are higher. See https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/10/melatonin-much-more-th...

Products exist in US and recently Canada too

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#52

Post by rybosworld »

tmountain wrote: post #22
submeta wrote: post #17

Tangential: Have had sleep disorders my whole life. Until I read an article here about melatonin (an article that was about substances that have an effect on longevity). So I started taking melatonin every night, 0.5mg. I must say: Never had this kind of deep sleep. Over such a long period of weeks (since I started taking it). My Garmin watch has a sleep tracker. And it confirms that I get way more deep sleep.

My understanding has always been that you habituate to melatonin after a few days. Is this not true?

The body will develop a tolerance (or the reverse, a sensitization reaction) to just about any substance that's taken regularly due to homeostasis. However, so long as you're taking a dose that nudges some physiologic signal/need in the right direction, your body's response to the substance will be minimal.

I'd be surprised if you can find anything this isn't true for.

A lack of studies on what the tolerance looks like for a particular substance does not imply that tolerance does not form.

In the case of melatonin: It's almost universally true that your sleep quality is worse than it was before once you stop taking it (for a few days at least). That's an indication that your body's equilibrium has changed from habitual use.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#53

Post by soulofmischief »

dpeckett wrote: post #45

I'm pretty sure at this point I have familial advanced sleep phase syndrome of an unknown genetic etiology [1]. Wake up stupid early in the morning, get drowsy very early in the evenings etc. For a long time due to social pressure/habit I'd just power through the evening drowsiness. That lead to me only being able to sleep six hours or so (due to waking up stupid early), which over time lead to a substantial sleep de…

You might know this, but sleep debt doesn't just keep piling on. Eventually, and rather quickly, you may begin to experience permanent brain damage after a few nights of sleep deprivation.

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STR.0000000000000453

From one insomniac to another... In the past I've been lucky if I get 3 hours total of sleep in a night due to physical pain disorders. I have deep trouble getting into NREM. I lucid dream often and my brain is active even when I'm supposed to be sleeping. In my dreams, I have to be careful not to be too energetic or overstimulated, or I will wake up.

I've had insomnia and night terrors since before I was regularly forming memories. An abusive childhood intensified that. I'm in my early 30s now and the damage is clear, both physically and to my life in general.

As much as I fear them, sleeping medication seems like the only way to save myself from early onset dementia or not accomplishing certain goals due to a perpetually low energy budget. It also has prevented me from losing weight. Sleep studies have shown that people who get frequently woken up while sleeping can burn around 50% less fat.. In my case, that's my entire calorie deficit which means in order to lose weight I have to basically starve myself. Melatonin, etc. have never worked for me.

All this to say... Don't wait for the damage to build up even more. Sleeping medication might change your life. I'm hoping it restores mine.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#54

Post by tacone »

jansan wrote: post #2

Only slightly related, but I often try to find ways to fall asleep faster. One thing that seems to work in some situations is trying to imagine a void (like a white or gray plane) for a while. However, often enough this does not work and I wonder if anyone knows of tricks that work for her/him (without using Melantonin or other drugs).

On a side note, a good way to check your progress towards falling asleep is looking through your closed eyelids. The more movement (points, lights) you see, the more you're actually close to falling asleep.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#55

Post by vlod »

jghn wrote: post #40
rndmio wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds trite but my surefire method is to stop thinking. I literally lie down, close my eyes, and stop thinking. Sleep comes quickly.

My mom always told me to do this as a child. I’ve never understood this nor any other visualization technique. I have never found this to be possible. At best I actively think about not thinking which is counterproductive but even then within about 10 seconds my mind has already wandered. And if I’m not actively trying I’ll always have some other thoughts popping in no matter what

Something that works for me is count from 10 to 1 slowly. Concentrate getting to 1. If another thought enters, start the count again. Repeat. This is like counting the proverbial sheep.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#56

Post by cedws »

soulofmischief wrote: post #53
dpeckett wrote: post #45

I'm pretty sure at this point I have familial advanced sleep phase syndrome of an unknown genetic etiology [1]. Wake up stupid early in the morning, get drowsy very early in the evenings etc. For a long time due to social pressure/habit I'd just power through the evening drowsiness. That lead to me only being able to sleep six hours or so (due to waking up stupid early), which over time lead to a substantial sleep de…

You might know this, but sleep debt doesn't just keep piling on. Eventually, and rather quickly, you may begin to experience permanent brain damage after a few nights of sleep deprivation. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STR.0000000000000453 From one insomniac to another... In the past I've been lucky if I get 3 hours total of sleep in a night due to physical pain disorders. I have deep trouble getting into N…

When you say “sleep medication” what do you mean specifically? AFAIK melatonin is safe but diphenhydramine overuse is linked to dementia.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#57

Post by hypeatei »

webnrrd2k wrote: post #39

Taking melatonin has been mentioned several times in different threads here, and I just wanted to add my experience... I find that taking the minimal amount make a big difference here, and it's about 3 micro-grams (not milli-grams) for me. The trick is to get some liquid melatonin drops. There is a brand that has 3 milligrams per 30 drops as a recommended dosage, so I just take 3 or so drops and let them dissolve on…

What time do you take them? An hour before going to sleep or right before?

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#58

Post by dpeckett »

soulofmischief wrote: post #53
dpeckett wrote: post #45

I'm pretty sure at this point I have familial advanced sleep phase syndrome of an unknown genetic etiology [1]. Wake up stupid early in the morning, get drowsy very early in the evenings etc. For a long time due to social pressure/habit I'd just power through the evening drowsiness. That lead to me only being able to sleep six hours or so (due to waking up stupid early), which over time lead to a substantial sleep de…

You might know this, but sleep debt doesn't just keep piling on. Eventually, and rather quickly, you may begin to experience permanent brain damage after a few nights of sleep deprivation. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STR.0000000000000453 From one insomniac to another... In the past I've been lucky if I get 3 hours total of sleep in a night due to physical pain disorders. I have deep trouble getting into N…

Absolutely, loss of deep sleep is associated with a ton of aging related cognitive decline. There's a number of startups experimenting with techniques to enhance deep sleep in the elderly atm (timed audio clicks, electrical stimulation etc).

There's not a lot of evidence that most common sleep medications are associated with long term improvements in health outcomes. Most have substantial detrimental effects on sleep architecture, can exacerbate underlying issues like apnea etc. Interesting the gabapentanoids (chronic pain) and Xyrem (narcolepsy) are associated with increased slow wave sleep. More research is needed (eg the DORA drugs [1]).

Thankfully circadian issues (in the absence of sleep loss) aren't associated with negative health outcomes. Just a case of finding a way to modify ones life to accommodate them.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orexin_antagonist

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#59

Post by ssttoo »

v7engine wrote: post #21
submeta wrote: post #17

Tangential: Have had sleep disorders my whole life. Until I read an article here about melatonin (an article that was about substances that have an effect on longevity). So I started taking melatonin every night, 0.5mg. I must say: Never had this kind of deep sleep. Over such a long period of weeks (since I started taking it). My Garmin watch has a sleep tracker. And it confirms that I get way more deep sleep.

I am considering taking melatonin supplements. Could you recommend any? I wake up several times in the night.

I recently started exploring supplements. Turns out a lot of what you find in the likes of CVS and Whole Foods can be all over the map: from 0 of the actual ingredient to 10x what’s on the label. Current consensus on reputable brands seems to be Thorne, NOW, Life extensions, and Pure. The last one acquired by Nestle, make of that what you will.

Re: How the brain's activity, energy use and blood flow change as people fall asleep

#60

Post by [deleted] »

cedws wrote: post #56
soulofmischief wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might know this, but sleep debt doesn't just keep piling on. Eventually, and rather quickly, you may begin to experience permanent brain damage after a few nights of sleep deprivation. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/STR.0000000000000453 From one insomniac to another... In the past I've been lucky if I get 3 hours total of sleep in a night due to physical pain disorders. I have deep trouble getting into N…

When you say “sleep medication” what do you mean specifically? AFAIK melatonin is safe but diphenhydramine overuse is linked to dementia.

[deleted]
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