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Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#51

Post by cpleppert »

codedokode wrote: post #13

It is interesting that although Napoleon captured Moscow, the capital at that time was in Saint-Petersburg. Why didn't he go to the capital? This painting depicts Napoleon hopelessly waiting for a delegation from Russian Emperor with burning city in the background [1]. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Napoleon_in_burning_...

A bunch of reasons.

1. Napoleon's goal was to pursue and defeat the Russian army in the field, not necessarily capture cities. Going north would have meant releasing the pressure on the main russian field armies and let them engage his main force at their discretion while exposing his flank.

2. St. Petersburg remained the political and economic capital of Russia; St. Petersburg never displaced Moscow in real world importance.

3. St. Petersburg was shielded from land and sea with prepared fortifications on both and Napoleon lacked a fleet to effectively blockade it.

4. Its in the middle of a very dense forest and swamp, not the the best logistics and ability to maintain a siege.

The Nazis made the same choice in WWII and even though they were able to control the Baltics and had Finland as an ally never seriously threatened to take the city.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#52

Post by username332211 »

codedokode wrote: post #50

It is also interesting that Russian army officers could talk to French without a translator, because Napoleon invasion happened in the period of "westernization", started by Peter the Great. The buildings were built in a Western style, calendar was changed to European, government, army and fleet were reformed, noblemen were required to shave their traditional beards, wear western-style clothes, used French language,…

It's a lot less interesting once you look trough the names of senior Russian officers - de Tolly, Bagration, von Benningsen, Wittgenstein, Osterman-Tolstoy.

One begins to suspect that the reason Kutuzov replaced Barkley was for a sort of reverse-DEI reasons.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#53

Post by littlestymaar »

itsnowandnever wrote: post #46
codedokode wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I remember, after French revolution, there were coalitions of foreign monarchies with the goal of punishing France [1]. Also what surprises me, after years of several revolutions and chaos in France, how could Napoleon gather such a large army. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition

he essentially invented the modern concept of conscription. there were press gangs and conscription-like things all through history but for the most part soldiers were professionals

He didn't invent it, the revolutionary government did and Bonaparte then inherited a massive experimented army after the French Republic having been at war for a decade when he took power.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#54

Post by codedokode »

username332211 wrote: post #52
codedokode wrote: post #50

It is also interesting that Russian army officers could talk to French without a translator, because Napoleon invasion happened in the period of "westernization", started by Peter the Great. The buildings were built in a Western style, calendar was changed to European, government, army and fleet were reformed, noblemen were required to shave their traditional beards, wear western-style clothes, used French language,…

It's a lot less interesting once you look trough the names of senior Russian officers - de Tolly, Bagration, von Benningsen, Wittgenstein, Osterman-Tolstoy. One begins to suspect that the reason Kutuzov replaced Barkley was for a sort of reverse-DEI reasons.

I remember reading one of Peter the Great's orders regarding creating 10 new units in the army. Out of names of the commanders only 3-4 were Russian. So hiring foreign talent was also part of westernization.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#55

Post by littlestymaar »

codedokode wrote: post #42
zemptime wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One theory I've heard for this, and sorry I don't remember the source, is that Napoleon suspected if he truly did take down the Russian royalty then he expected the rest of European royalty to unite and attack attack him.

As I remember, after French revolution, there were coalitions of foreign monarchies with the goal of punishing France [1]. Also what surprises me, after years of several revolutions and chaos in France, how could Napoleon gather such a large army. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_First_Coalition

> Also what surprises me, after years of several revolutions and chaos in France, how could Napoleon gather such a large army.

Conscription + France was basically the China of Europe at that point: it was almost as populated as the rest of Europe combined.

France then had a very, very, early demographic transition which dramatically limited its population. Had France followed the demographic path of England or Germany, France would have around 250M inhabitants today.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#56

Post by ternus »

codedokode wrote: post #50

It is also interesting that Russian army officers could talk to French without a translator, because Napoleon invasion happened in the period of "westernization", started by Peter the Great. The buildings were built in a Western style, calendar was changed to European, government, army and fleet were reformed, noblemen were required to shave their traditional beards, wear western-style clothes, used French language,…

This is a major through-line in War and Peace. Native Russian characters write to each other in (untranslated-in-the-original! Hope your translation comes with footnotes!) French, and a significant chunk of the dialogue is in French as well.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#57

Post by vitus »

username332211 wrote: post #52
codedokode wrote: post #50

It is also interesting that Russian army officers could talk to French without a translator, because Napoleon invasion happened in the period of "westernization", started by Peter the Great. The buildings were built in a Western style, calendar was changed to European, government, army and fleet were reformed, noblemen were required to shave their traditional beards, wear western-style clothes, used French language,…

It's a lot less interesting once you look trough the names of senior Russian officers - de Tolly, Bagration, von Benningsen, Wittgenstein, Osterman-Tolstoy. One begins to suspect that the reason Kutuzov replaced Barkley was for a sort of reverse-DEI reasons.

And if you look at the people behind those names, you'll find that most of them were either born in the Russian Empire or moved there at a young age.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Andreas_Barclay_de_Tol... - moved to St Petersburg around the age of 3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Bagration - born in Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wittgenstein - born near Kyiv

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Ivanovich_Ostermann-... - part of Russian nobility; the Ostermann name came from his great-uncles.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#58

Post by hunterpayne »

cpleppert wrote: post #51
codedokode wrote: post #13

It is interesting that although Napoleon captured Moscow, the capital at that time was in Saint-Petersburg. Why didn't he go to the capital? This painting depicts Napoleon hopelessly waiting for a delegation from Russian Emperor with burning city in the background [1]. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Napoleon_in_burning_...

A bunch of reasons. 1. Napoleon's goal was to pursue and defeat the Russian army in the field, not necessarily capture cities. Going north would have meant releasing the pressure on the main russian field armies and let them engage his main force at their discretion while exposing his flank. 2. St. Petersburg remained the political and economic capital of Russia; St. Petersburg never displaced Moscow in real world im…

> The Nazis made the same choice in WWII and even though they were able to control the Baltics and had Finland as an ally never seriously threatened to take the city.

There was an 18 month siege of SP during WWII. SP starved and people there resorted to cannibalism to survive. I don't remember if it was ever taken but the Germans definitely tried to. And the situation there was ghoulish, so even if they didn't, they almost did.

Re: Dead soldiers' teeth reveal diseases that doomed Napoleon's army

#60

Post by bigbadfeline »

paganel wrote: post #33
codedokode wrote: post #13

It is interesting that although Napoleon captured Moscow, the capital at that time was in Saint-Petersburg. Why didn't he go to the capital? This painting depicts Napoleon hopelessly waiting for a delegation from Russian Emperor with burning city in the background [1]. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Napoleon_in_burning_...

Because Napoleon didn't want to depose the Tsar, much less to conquer Russia, he just wanted to impose his (Napoleon's) will on the Tsar and on Russia as a whole when it came to strictly imposing the Continental Blockade against the British. A heavily defeated Russia wouldn't have helped him into achieving that.

> Because Napoleon didn't want to depose the Tsar, much less to conquer Russia... A heavily defeated Russia wouldn't have helped him into achieving [the blockade of Britain].

You think a heavily defeated Napoleon would help him a lot in that matter? Realistically, there was no third option, going in guaranteed than one of them would be heavily defeated.

At that point in time, Napoleon was in command of the largest and most heavily armed military force in history. And he assembled it to go beg the Tsar to blockade a third country? It doesn't make any sense.

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