3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive • Hacker News Board

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#51

Post by mratzloff » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:39 AM UTC

htmltablesrules wrote: post #24

mattmanser wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fundamentally disagree. The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like. You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

If I place an ad on craigslist, I would like to know if my ad will show up on...SanFranGayApts.net or something like that too. Where did I agree to have MY ad syndicated? Nowhere, that's where. And why would ad copy not by copyrightable? I don't see a creative commons license at the bottom of craigslist ads. I'm not sure where all this entitlement comes from that you think you have a right to another company's databa…

Craigslist's copyright claim is likely indefensible. Read the article for the reason why.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#52

Post by mratzloff » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:45 AM UTC

ghshephard wrote: post #10

The irony is that if Craigslist would just take the time and effort to add a bit more functional / elegant interface, these third parties would have no reason to exist, and all the legal matters would disappear I understand that Craigslist wants to "Serve their community" and believes that changing their interface would interfere with that mission somehow (both, in terms of having to charge more in order to hire UI p…

It's just fear of screwing up a winning formula. Craigslist is making money hand over fist; they could hire some front end guys if they wanted to.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#53

Post by mratzloff » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 5:48 AM UTC

htmltablesrules wrote: post #43

jonknee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3Taps doesn't access Craigstlist so the TOS has no effect.

You are 100% wrong. The ad copy on craigslist IS copyright protected so it doesn't matter where you scraped it from. TOSs do govern the data whether or not you are viewing a cached copy or not. By your logic all TOSs are rendered useless if you browse the net via proxy servers. You can scrape anything off the internet you like and do as you please...but you can't create a business out of it.

It is not black and white, despite your assertion. It should be tested in court.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#54

Post by creat0 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:04 AM UTC

Avitas wrote: post #50

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

As a regular Craigslist user (buyer, seller and message board poster), my personal preference is to have material I post only accessible directly from CL. In other words, I do not want my classified ads, contact information contained therein, pictures, social banter, business ads and other information available to any external information service or website. This is my expectation not only of CL, but of many sites. I…

I would expect that many users would feel this way.

I can guess why. But could you tell us specifically?

Assume for the sake of the question that whereever the data may appear on the web, it would always have a "Source: " line to indicate its original source, i.e. the site to which you submitted it. Assume that the integrity of the data could also be verified, e.g., through a digital signature.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#55

Post by natrius » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:23 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #27

natrius wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any precedent that gives sites that accept user-generated content grounds to sue when their users' copyrights are violated. I would like to hear of one.

If you're scraping user-submitted content by accessing (e.g.) CraigsList, then I would think that CraigsList could try and claim that it was unauthorized access of their systems.

Agreed, but my understanding is that 3Taps pulled the listings via Google cache.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#56

Post by natrius » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:33 AM UTC

Avitas wrote: post #50

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

As a regular Craigslist user (buyer, seller and message board poster), my personal preference is to have material I post only accessible directly from CL. In other words, I do not want my classified ads, contact information contained therein, pictures, social banter, business ads and other information available to any external information service or website. This is my expectation not only of CL, but of many sites. I…

I think most Craigslist sellers want as many people as possible to see their listings. Your criteria exclude Google, which indexes every publicly available user-generated content site and thereby benefits Craigslist sellers.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#57

Post by creat0 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:43 AM UTC

htmltablesrules wrote: post #24

mattmanser wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fundamentally disagree. The users know CL is sharing it with the world and that's what the users expect. As the article says, CL is happy for search engines to access these. Just obviously not search engines that they don't like. You don't get to pick and choose who accesses your website unless you put a password up. And if the content's not copyrightable...

If I place an ad on craigslist, I would like to know if my ad will show up on...SanFranGayApts.net or something like that too. Where did I agree to have MY ad syndicated? Nowhere, that's where. And why would ad copy not by copyrightable? I don't see a creative commons license at the bottom of craigslist ads. I'm not sure where all this entitlement comes from that you think you have a right to another company's databa…

If you wanted your personally identifiable data protected from public access (being cached by search engines), then presumably you would not submit it to a web site that is open to the public (not password protected).

If Craigslist changes its name or sells its SF apartment listings to some site with a name you do not like, what can you do? Answer: Nothing, because you gave them an exclusive nonrevocable license to your data. If you really wanted control over your personally identifiable data then it would probably be wise not to submit it to a site that gets scraped and cached by Google (from which anyone can make fair use) and certainly not under a license that gave you no control over the data after it's submitted. You would want a site that has some sort of protections like passwords, that allows some degree of pseudo anonymity so your name is not embedded in an evergreen search engine cache; and you would want the right to tell the site to remove/delete the data at your direction, if that became necessary (e.g. in your example scenario).

In short, Craigslist really isn't in the business of protecting your data for you. Its terms are what they are because it's seeking to protect its own business, which relies on your data.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#58

Post by idonthack » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:55 AM UTC

Avitas wrote: post #50

res0nat0r wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) People go to craigslist and create content about some aspect of their lives. They, as the original authors of the content, post it to craiglist with the intention that the general public can see it. Craigslist users only agreed to have their content displayed on the Craigslist site, not on any other random site on the Internet who wants to relist their posting without the users explicit permission.

As a regular Craigslist user (buyer, seller and message board poster), my personal preference is to have material I post only accessible directly from CL. In other words, I do not want my classified ads, contact information contained therein, pictures, social banter, business ads and other information available to any external information service or website. This is my expectation not only of CL, but of many sites. I…

> I suspect that my expectation of non-propagation of material is the default expectation for many or most sites that accept user submitted material.

Do you realize that the entire purpose of this very website is to facilitate the propogation of material found on other websites, many of which contain user-generated content?

It's kind of silly to say something in a public place and then expect it to never be repeated.

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#59

Post by creat0 » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:59 AM UTC

htmltablesrules wrote: post #43

jonknee wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3Taps doesn't access Craigstlist so the TOS has no effect.

You are 100% wrong. The ad copy on craigslist IS copyright protected so it doesn't matter where you scraped it from. TOSs do govern the data whether or not you are viewing a cached copy or not. By your logic all TOSs are rendered useless if you browse the net via proxy servers. You can scrape anything off the internet you like and do as you please...but you can't create a business out of it.

"You can scrape anything you like off the internet and do as you please... but you can't create a business out of it."

I tried to tell this to the Google guys in the 1990's but they didn't listen! :)

Re: 3Taps Files Countersuit, Says Craigslist Is Anticompetitive

#60

Post by systemtrigger » Tue, Sep 25, 2012, 6:59 AM UTC

If 3Taps wins, the gold rush is on to create CL interfaces using 3Taps' API. The major roadblock becomes images. Image URLs are provided in 3Taps' API but since no one can hotlink to CL, images are useless. How do you build a better CL interface if you can't use images?