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US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

theguardian.com

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Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#51

Post by keiferski »

hypeatei wrote: post #49
keiferski wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as ma…

> And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality Becoming a failed state overnight? Probably not, I agree. Midterm elections are approaching and the federal government has already shown its willingness to deploy the military to big cities for intimidation purposes. Also don't forget: our current President also…

There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc.

I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#52

Post by CaptainOfCoit »

keiferski wrote: post #44
BirAdam wrote: post #6

I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans, but I don’t think it’s for Visa-free tourism. I think it’s because a growing number of Americans feel that the country is unstable and likely headed toward a failed-state status.

Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as ma…

> The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US.

I mean, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Just an anecdote, also with bias, but almost every American I've met outside of the US (from all walks of life, from uber rich to almost homeless) seems to agree with the idea that the US is approaching a "no turning back" point, and cites that as being the reason they moved away.

> If the US becomes a failed state, trust me, the rest of the world will be too.

I'm fairly sure every citizen of a huge empire felt like that too, through the ages. Rome citizens surely felt the same, until it turned out that no single entity is powerful enough that the entire world would be "failed" just because one nation failed.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#54

Post by keiferski »

CaptainOfCoit wrote: post #52
keiferski wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as ma…

> The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. I mean, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place. Just an anecdote, also with bias, but almost every American I've met outside of the US (from all walks of life, from uber rich to almost homeless) seems to agree with the idea that the US is approaching a "no turning back" point, and cites that as being the reason they move…

I think your sample is pretty biased, because that viewpoint doesn’t apply to me or any Americans I’ve met abroad. Skeptical or critical of America and American culture, sure, but I certainly didn’t move abroad because of those reasons.

Most Americans abroad tend to be there because of work, or because their partners are from the country. The number of people able to move abroad because of recent political issues is extremely small, because that sort of life flexibility is not available to the vast, vast majority of people.

I mean, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place.

Where would they go? Immigrating to another first world country is pretty expensive and difficult. Just picking up and moving somewhere abroad is really not an option for 99% of people.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#55

Post by Argonaut998 »

rayiner wrote: post #40
zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like a huge hassle, but I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry. I should do that sooner than later.

> I should be able to get citizenship in an EU county based on ancestry Imagine complaining about America and then fleeing to an ethnostate.

There are no ethnostates in Europe anymore unfortunately. Every European city is indistinguishable from New York these days

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#56

Post by hollerith »

keiferski wrote: post #44
BirAdam wrote: post #6

I agree that Dual Citizenship is a dream among a large plurality of Americans, but I don’t think it’s for Visa-free tourism. I think it’s because a growing number of Americans feel that the country is unstable and likely headed toward a failed-state status.

Yeah as an American that has been living abroad for a decade and will be a dual citizen soon: I don’t agree with that take at all. The vast majority of people in the US still see their future in the US. Dual citizenship, much less actually living abroad, is still an extremely niche topic and basically only a thing amongst upper middle class and above professionals and tech workers. And as chaotic and concerning as ma…

I agree: although there is a very small chance that civil war will break out in the US, there's essentially zero chance it becomes a failed state.

The administrative consensus created by FDR is breaking down, and it is not yet clear what will replace it. (Trump is unlikely to be the main architect of the new administrative consensus.) To people who cannot help but view everything through the lens of the old consensus, it looks like the entire US society is breaking down, but the US is very good at invention and reinvention, so once the outlines of a new administrative consensus forms, state capacity will return very quickly.

I'm repeating George Friedman here.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#57

Post by hypeatei »

keiferski wrote: post #51
hypeatei wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And as chaotic and concerning as many political events may be, the idea that the US will become “a failed state” is pretty divorced from the actual reality Becoming a failed state overnight? Probably not, I agree. Midterm elections are approaching and the federal government has already shown its willingness to deploy the military to big cities for intimidation purposes. Also don't forget: our current President also…

There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc. I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.

There's a famous saying about going bankrupt: "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly"

In this case, "going bankrupt" is the dissolution of the United States. We definitely won't be able to predict when it happens, and it may be unlikely, but IMO the likelihood of it happening ticks up the more I see how the federal government is attempting to crush dissent.

Not to mention completely apolitical things like the debt crisis, which will be unmanageable after a certain point. Our biggest line item in the budget is now paying interest on the debt. And we just passed the OBBB which increased deficit spending by $3.4T over ten years.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#58

Post by newswangerd »

Swizec wrote: post #30
newswangerd wrote: post #16

I’ve always argued that the US is the most powerful passport despite not granting access to the most countries for one simple reason: it’s one of only half a dozen passports that lets you visit the US visa free.

> it’s [US passport] one of only half a dozen passports that lets you visit the US visa free. That is just false. EU passports can travel to USA Visa free and that’s 27 countries right there. edit: Oh unless you count ESTA as a type of visa. You have to fill out a 5min always-approved form online.

I was counting the ESTA. I don’t have any experience with it, so you’ll have to pardon my ignorance.

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#59

Post by khuey »

sojournerc wrote: post #48
khuey wrote: post #36

More applicable to the average American traveler's life than whether they can visit 180 or 181 countries without a visa is the rise of electronic travel authorization requirements from other countries. The UK imposed one earlier this year and the EU is set to do the same next year (though ETIAS seems perpetually delayed). While everyone involved (except Australia) insists that electronic travel authorizations are not…

Having recently traveled through the UK as a US citizen, it was a 5 minute process in an app. Nothing to be concerned about. Honduras, where I travel frequently, already does fingerprints as the EU is about to do. It's just not a big deal or a barrier to travel. Currently going from Scandinavia to Northern continental Europe and it couldn't be easier. So much FUD for so little change.

It's not that it's a big deal, it's that these rankings are pointless because they say that US citizens can go to the UK visa free but not Vietnam when in practice the requirement to enter both countries is exactly the same (go on a website, fill out a form, and pay $20ish).

Re: US falls out of 10 most powerful passports list for first time in 20 yrs

#60

Post by keiferski »

hypeatei wrote: post #57
keiferski wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a very big difference between a failed state and life slowly getting worse, institutional rotting, etc. I really don’t foresee a scenario where America turns into Somalia or Haiti in the near future.

There's a famous saying about going bankrupt: "How did you go bankrupt? Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly" In this case, "going bankrupt" is the dissolution of the United States. We definitely won't be able to predict when it happens, and it may be unlikely, but IMO the likelihood of it happening ticks up the more I see how the federal government is attempting to crush dissent. Not to mention completely apolitical t…

All of that could happen and the US still wouldn’t turn into a failed state. There are orders of magnitude more technology, intelligence, non-governmental organizations, cultural knowledge, etc. in the country than in places which became failed states.
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