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A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

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Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#51

Post by HelloNurse »

cantor_S_drug wrote: post #33
Weeenion wrote: post #10

I'm curious if you could destroy a SpaceX Satelite with a basic laser pointers. Easily enough for normal state actors and some university or engineering lab. You need only to track it and shoot your laser up there (its only 500km) and if it can't dissipate the energy fast enough, it would overheat.

A simple way would be to send up a satellite filled with "bullets" in the orbit. At the opportune moment, the satellite will fire these bullets and they will place themselves in the paths of these satellites (no need to track and target the satellites, the satellites will fly towards the bullets as their paths are fixed), boom space debris and subsequent chain reaction.

Are you kidding? Are you comparing a hobby project like shooting a laser from the ground, using a precise servo mount to track the target, vs. flying to space a large payload and then shoot bullets with enough precision to hit the target and enough speed to damage it? It would be vastly larger (including the necessary rocket) and more expensive.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#52

Post by IT4MD »

cantor_S_drug wrote: post #33
Weeenion wrote: post #10

I'm curious if you could destroy a SpaceX Satelite with a basic laser pointers. Easily enough for normal state actors and some university or engineering lab. You need only to track it and shoot your laser up there (its only 500km) and if it can't dissipate the energy fast enough, it would overheat.

A simple way would be to send up a satellite filled with "bullets" in the orbit. At the opportune moment, the satellite will fire these bullets and they will place themselves in the paths of these satellites (no need to track and target the satellites, the satellites will fly towards the bullets as their paths are fixed), boom space debris and subsequent chain reaction.

A. This leaves a semi-permanent hazard in orbit for all other satellites. (Semi, because it can be cleaned up, but it's difficult, expensive and no laws require the idiots that do this to clean it up)

B. The Russians already have this tech and have "practiced" with it a few times, so have already added untold hazards in orbit.

C. The people that cause these problems, ignore the hazards left behind and let others simply die.

This is a horrific idea and not new. Let's not do more of it.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#53

Post by mrDmrTmrJ »

Zigurd wrote: post #39
next_xibalba wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a viable alternative? SpaceX is the only launch provider and satellite operator that is progressing at a rapid pace and driving costs down.

2/3 of Falcon 9 launches are for Starlink. No outside revenue. SpaceX continues to require new investment rounds. So the whole "driving costs down" thing might only work until investors expect some actual free cash flow. There have been 11 test launches of starship. You might've missed the last one because it didn't do anything new, except shedding parts and exploding less. There's a pretty good chance that program w…

Well, if 2/3 of SpaceX's current launches are for Starlink (which deploys satellites in LEO), isn't a two-stage, fully reusable vehicle optimized for LEO deployment the thing SpaceX would want to build?

In terms of "free cash flow" expectations, are you aware that approximately 90% of "space" revenue and profit comes from satellite telecom services, with launch services accounting for about 10% of the mix? SpaceX's development of a telecommunications constellation (Starlink) is highly consistent with historical industry patterns of what makes profit in space.

https://brycetech.com/reports/report-documents/global_satell...

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#54

Post by irjustin »

Zigurd wrote: post #26
ACCount37 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with terrestrial wireless links is that you just aren't going to cover every inch of Earth's surface with terrestrial wireless links. At the same time: coverage comes cheap to Starlink. Which makes it perfect for serving areas no one wants to serve. Such as rural areas, anything outside the largest cities in underdeveloped countries, the open ocean, and so it goes.

Places only Starllink can reach are an insufficient and shrinking TAM. The only places a terrestrial wireless provider doesn't want to serve are places that can't afford FWA even though it costs less.

Planes boats etc

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#55

Post by xyzzyz »

kragen wrote: post #47
ajross wrote: post #13

I'm all for a good spy story, but this seems like a big shrug to me. Interference-sensitive satellite communication is done with directional dishes, who cares what some other satellite is transmitting? That's the kind of nonsense you already engineered around. And of course all communication managed by modern ICs is done with some kind of spread spectrum protocol with the property that "interference" is a routine/exp…

This is not correct. Low-data-rate satellite communication is generally received on the satellite with omnidirectional antennas, because if you try to do it with directional dishes, any problem with your satellite's attitude control system or position estimation leaves you with a dead satellite, because the directional dish on the satellite is pointed somewhere you don't have a transmitting antenna. Attitude control…

This is not the case with Starlink (and presumably Starlink) satellites. The ground stations use directional phased arrays. They can do it, because they keep good track of where each satellite is at any given moment, and do trajectory adjustments as needed.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#56

Post by RobotToaster »

Weeenion wrote: post #10

I'm curious if you could destroy a SpaceX Satelite with a basic laser pointers. Easily enough for normal state actors and some university or engineering lab. You need only to track it and shoot your laser up there (its only 500km) and if it can't dissipate the energy fast enough, it would overheat.

If your laser pointer is a few megawatts sure.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#57

Post by ajross »

iamnothere wrote: post #49
ajross wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cellular devices are an obvious application that needs dedicated spectrum allocation. Not since the death of TDMA, it isn't. Mobile bands are regulated to be exclusive, but nothing about LTE or 5G requires exclusive access or the absence of interference. These devices step on each others toes all the time and (via the magic of OFDMA and other dark trickery) still receive their data just fine. You could start up a t…

Without rules around spectrum usage or interference in place, you’re saying I could just set up my own 1 MW transmitter on the cellular bands and the phones would just continue working as if nothing was happening? Fantastic, let’s get rid of the rules then. I have been wanting to build a giant spark gap in my backyard, that would finally make it legal.

Now you're moving the goalposts. The subject at hand is a seemingly benign use of ITU-regulated spectrum for a purpose that is not quite what it was supposed to be for (literally the direction of transmission is wrong, not the location or power level of the signals!).

I don't disagree that people shouldn't be setting up 1MW jammers on mobile bands, but neither did I argue for that, and you know it.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#58

Post by robotresearcher »

Zigurd wrote: post #26
ACCount37 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with terrestrial wireless links is that you just aren't going to cover every inch of Earth's surface with terrestrial wireless links. At the same time: coverage comes cheap to Starlink. Which makes it perfect for serving areas no one wants to serve. Such as rural areas, anything outside the largest cities in underdeveloped countries, the open ocean, and so it goes.

Places only Starllink can reach are an insufficient and shrinking TAM. The only places a terrestrial wireless provider doesn't want to serve are places that can't afford FWA even though it costs less.

Also where terrestrial access is denied by the local government or infra has been disabled or destroyed.

I hope Starlink can maintain enough regular non-crisis subscribers to subsidize this incredibly helpful use case.

Perhaps governments could/do pay a retainer to keep this option alive.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#59

Post by bob1029 »

The mass of the starlink satellites has doubled twice since V1.

It is not hard to assume that there is a significant DoD rideshare payload involved on the existing commercial satellites. Having a sensor platform on every single one would be incredible. The satellites that have been officially branded as Starshield (~183 we know of) could be part of cover or a more "kinetic" mission profile.

If I was in charge at the Pentagon, I would want every one of those 10k birds to have my sensor package on it. I also don't think I would permit a commercial spaceflight vendor to perform as many launches as SpaceX has performed without some kind of arrangement like this in place.

Re: A classified network of SpaceX satellites is emitting a mysterious signal

#60

Post by aerostable_slug »

Weeenion wrote: post #10

I'm curious if you could destroy a SpaceX Satelite with a basic laser pointers. Easily enough for normal state actors and some university or engineering lab. You need only to track it and shoot your laser up there (its only 500km) and if it can't dissipate the energy fast enough, it would overheat.

The Russians have laser dazzlers designed to degrade/"jam" electro-optical imaging satellites. These are currently mounted to trucks and at least one airborne testbed. They are significantly more powerful than laser pointers and they have a prayer of accurately pointing the beam to hit the targeted satellites.

That said, they are dazzlers and not destroyers — they're designed to prevent American recce satellites from cuing American strategic bombers to the location of mobile missile launchers, so just dazzling the satellite's primary sensor accomplishes their task. Of course, that won't work against space-based SAR, but they have RF jammers (and decoys) for that.

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