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The App Store was always authoritarian

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Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#51

I just want to remind people that the alternative to authority is anarchy. No, not the utopian kind, Star Trek style. Think: Mad Max. I’m trying to communicate with relatives of my partner while on holiday. We have iPhones, they all have Androids. We asked them to install “ChatGPT” because its voice mode is shockingly good at near-real-time translation. When I type “ChatGPT” into the Apple App Store, the top hit is……

This is a shockingly bad argument.

The place where your uncle in law was finding scam apps was not some obscure website where he was downloading scam APKs. It was a centralized store from Google, just a poorly managed one.

I, for that matter, use Android. Not out of love for Google (much to the opposite, I despise them and everything they do), but out of a lack of alternative. I do value the freedom to at least use an alternative store (F-Droid), and a system that is not completely hostile to a user that has at least a semblance of an idea of what he is doing.

> the alternative to authority is anarchy.

No. Anarchy always devolves into authoritarianism. Those with the bigger stick will rule over the others through strength.

The only alternative to authority is the very imperfect freedom that comes with democracy. It sort of sucks, it is full of compromises, and is something that ensures that no one will be perfectly happy. But it's so much better than your desire to have a boot on your neck.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#52

Heh, that’s all very cool and lots of smart words, but have you thought of children? Have you thought of elderly falling and unable to get up[1]? Surely you don’t want your fellow citizens to fall for Russian, Chinese, Another State Actor propaganda? State surveillance on unprecedented level? Don’t be paranoid! Surely a state actor would never abuse the power to snoop for your private photos[2]! Electronic waste? Duo…

Not an Apple user, but they support their devices for a long time, so there is that.

So does raspberry pi. They are supported even longer.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#53

I just want to remind people that the alternative to authority is anarchy. No, not the utopian kind, Star Trek style. Think: Mad Max. I’m trying to communicate with relatives of my partner while on holiday. We have iPhones, they all have Androids. We asked them to install “ChatGPT” because its voice mode is shockingly good at near-real-time translation. When I type “ChatGPT” into the Apple App Store, the top hit is……

- Mad Max is not a great example of anarchy, as the last couple of movies featured a government led by an autocrat (haven't seen the other ones) - The Play Store being bad does not mean the App Store is not also bad - How do you know most of the world likes the authority of the App Store? Is it not more likely that most of the world are ignorant of its rules, and assumes a free and open marketplace?

A gaggle of feuding warlords a government does not make.

> The Play Store being bad

The Play Store is actually merely “slightly worse” than the App Store. The problem was that my uncle in law was using some other “alternative app store” because Android allows this and then … inevitably … some lazy or corrupt app vendors encourage their use or outright require it. Or a phone manufacturer will try to make an extra 50c per device by inserting themselves (or a “valued partner”) between users and legitimate providers.

You’ll see arguments for this, right here, espoused vehemently by people that must really, desperately get away from oversight.

> free and open marketplace

That’s not a good thing.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#54

Agreed, Alex... but the Chrome team is not different . Nor is Edge. All three companies are willing to use all of their products for authoritarian control. The web platform feels no less captured than the app market.

It is very different. I develop and app that has iOS, Android and web version and iOS is by far the most problematic platform in this regard. Takes a few minutes to deploy a fresh web app. It takes a few weeks of being bullied by Apple to ship iOS app, and it's very miserable experience.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#55
Note that Apple's app store transparency report (thanks to them for publishing this, they don't have to)

https://www.apple.com/legal/more-resources/docs/2024-App-Sto...

says that there are over 1700 apps removed per year due to "government takedown demands". Since this is separate from about 2 million (!) apps they rejected from the app store and about 80,000 apps they removed from the app store on their own initiative, it stands to reason that they would have disagreed with quite a lot of those requests, but they still obeyed them.

One could think about this in at least two ways:

(1) If the 2,000,000 apps they rejected or the 80,000 apps they removed on their own initiative were very dangerous or very harmful in some way, one might believe that Apple's huge and arbitrary power over iPhones is ultimately beneficial because it's mostly used to protect people, and only slightly used to uphold state power over citizens.

(2) If you compare this to the baseline of "OS developers shouldn't decide what software you can run", then it's already, well, thousands of programs, probably often quite popular ones, that people are being intentionally prevented from using because their governments disapprove. And probably quite routinely for reasons that large parts of the population would disagree with. It is already a frequent event; in some countries (it's a long tail so the absolute majority of the removals in 2024 were attributable to the PRC!) it's plausible that most iPhone users directly experience the results of app censorship.

(You could add to this that users would also be divided about some of Apple's decisions on its own initiative, primarily apps that the company banned for sexual or violent content, usually fictional. Some users may agree with Apple using its power this way and other users may disagree. A recent example is that they've banned the SpicyChat AI erotic chat app, and probably many other "AI boyfriend/girlfriend" apps. In the past, they've banned apps created by various porn sites.)

I think this issue is confusing. I've always believed that device owners should have complete control of their computing devices and not be subject to other people's power when using them. You can see people in this thread pointing out that sometimes this power is being used to protect users (including from having their devices hijacked by malicious third parties, which would also tend to significantly undermine their control of their devices... although one can then argue about what responsibility different parties had to actively prevent that outcome). The argument that technological paternalism contributes to maximizing users' practical control is an argument that must be engaged with. And also, sometimes it's simply not being used to protect users at all.

By the way, if you get into the object level issue then you can get even more confused:

(1) I think the U.S. government probably wanted to ban this particular app merely because it was successful at helping people avoid deportation. But it might turn out that, with this app or with some future app that looks superficially similar, it actually is being used to coordinate violent attacks, even if the developer didn't intend that outcome. At some point, governments will have a case that there is some kind of meaningful physical-world harm associated with the observed usage of some piece of software. (More on that in other points below.)

(2) If Apple literally prevented itself from having the power to approve or reject software for iOS (e.g. by allowing "sideloading", which was the norm for almost all historical computing environments), then you literally could have apps that explicitly describe themselves as meant to coordinate violence (against law enforcement, against minority groups, against specific people, or whatever). This is not a strawman. It's really easy to write such an app. There is no reason to think that people who know how to write apps are all refraining from writing violence-coordination apps. In other contexts, people might be able to agree not to blame toolmakers for downstream uses of their tools, like not blaming radio manufacturers for having their radios be able to receive the broadcast incitements to genocide in Rwanda in the 1990s. So maybe we would eventually similarly be able to agree not to blame Apple for making an OS that could run the "Let's Kill ______" third-party app. But we should understand that on some occasions such an app would probably exist. You know, there are video games whose content is actually pretty gross by almost any given standard. A lot of people have been able to agree that those games can exist, or at least that people other than the developers bear no responsibility for their availability.

(3) You could say that Apple should just make good ethical object-level case-by-case decisions about how to use its power, which is probably what they try to do most of the time, but they sometimes fail, or sometimes there isn't a consensus within the company or within a society about what the right call should be. In this case, we're going to be back here again and again talking about the merits of different app bans, when they manage to get wide enough attention. Remember, again, there were already 1700 app bans per year last year, and presumably lots of governments are only just waking up to the possibility of demanding them!

(4) Governments are already using offline harms to justify incredibly intrusive control of computing and communications. Some of those offline harms are real, not speculative. For example, there really were lynchings coordinated via WhatsApp groups and via WhatsApp memes in several developing countries. The remedies and "solutions" that many governments have suggested in response to such things are incredibly scary.

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#57
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> exercise of utter worship It’s insane to me that you deify their computers so much. It’s just the only popular computer company that has a coherent set of high level APIs and good hardware. It’s sad that they’re the only one but it doesn’t make them God

Right? These comments are so bewildering. I like the design and UX, and the promise to at least a bit more privacy, but if I had to use android or windows or Ubuntu tomorrow, it’d be another device that I use. How you could even expend so much of your time to think about computers more than necessary to use them, much less worship a brand, is beyond me.

I’m often surprised at how strong these things run. And while I would prefer to use a mac than anything else for a few reasons, I find it very strange when my boss praises me for being the only one who is happy making sure our software works on Windows mac and Debian, as if it’s some kind of superpower to not throw a tantrum for having to use a different computer

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#58
post #44

Maybe it's not a great idea to allow a company to decide what software users can run, and I am inclined to believe that Murphy's Law will apply. Ultimately, software is freedom of speech.

I get that point as a person who frequents HN, but for many regular people that’s probably a net positive. People would install random apps or browser extensions just to gain an advantage in some Facebook click came. Having some kind of hidden “I know what I’m doing” mode would make sense, but would probably defeated the same way as “I’ll teach you how to open browser console” to paste some command exploits.

Just as a thought experiment: Governments could mandate banks to prevent their customers from spending beyond what'll go to rent/mortgage. It'd certainly prevent overdue or missed payments. Would that be a net positive, or would that prevent or slow people from learning fiscal responsibility and the benefits that go along with that?

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#59
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> exercise of utter worship It’s insane to me that you deify their computers so much. It’s just the only popular computer company that has a coherent set of high level APIs and good hardware. It’s sad that they’re the only one but it doesn’t make them God

Right? These comments are so bewildering. I like the design and UX, and the promise to at least a bit more privacy, but if I had to use android or windows or Ubuntu tomorrow, it’d be another device that I use. How you could even expend so much of your time to think about computers more than necessary to use them, much less worship a brand, is beyond me.

I think both of you entirely misread the top level comment.

He's saying that owning and using an Apple product requires you to engage in behaviors akin to worship, I imagine e.g. accepting Apple's way of doing X as correct by default (~worship) rather than wanting to customize something based on your thoughts and preferences (questioning).

Re: The App Store was always authoritarian

#60
To me, Apple has BEEN far behind. It's been far behind since the removal of the headphone jack. It's been far behind in the lack of USB integration. It's been way, way far behind the standard of technology, yet people are so pseudo-intellectual about it, to cope for the fact that they spent a ridiculous amount of cash on what is basically mainstream Linux. You can't do anything really interesting with it. You can barely game. It's simply for the mind-numbing office work, and nothing else. You're stuck in this room - this office work Eco system - and you don't know how to leave, and it's all Apple's fault you fell for the bait. You just want to open a window (pun intended) and let fresh air in, but there are no windows, and it's all Apple's fault.
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