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How to write in Cuneiform

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Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#51
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right in a politically sensitive context, but practically speaking Kanji and Chinese characters mostly share the same unicode code points, and you might want to ask yourself whether it’s worth nitpicking over for example whether English uses the Latin alphabet when proper classical Latin does not have J or U…

No J, U, W, and, prior to ~230BC, also no G; around that time also no Z which had been disfavored; almost no K which was barely used if at all, and Y was a distinctively Greek-only letter in Roman times, so that gives you 20 or 21 letters: ABCDEFHI(K)LMNOPQRSTVX for the Latin alphabet.

A lot of Pompeii graffiti is the alphabet. For example: https://www.ancientgraffiti.org/Graffiti/graffito/AGP-EDR167...

21 letters.

It's post-3rd-century and includes the G; you might have remembered an accurate statistic ("20 or 21 letters") while forgetting to count your alphabet, which only contains 19 or 20.

K is barely used, but you wouldn't be able to argue that it wasn't used at all. It's used in "kal.", which you have to use when you're specifying a date.

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#52
post #4

> Like Japan’s kanji alphabet, the oldest writing system in the world is syllabic. I think they have that mixed up with hiragana and katakana. Kanji are Chinese characters.

Well, if you call them kanji, they're Japanese characters. (Japanese characters with a name that literally means "Chinese characters", but still not Chinese characters.) Kanji are very much not syllabic. But Chinese characters are.

> Japan’s kanji alphabet

> if you call them kanji, they're Japanese characters [...] Kanji are very much not syllabic

@2, the reason Japanese speakers use the designation 'Kanji' is the same reason that English use 'Latin', as a reference to their origin. To insist that Kanji are Japanese and not Chinese would be as strange as insisting that English does not use the Latin alphabet: it's not wrong in the sense that Japanese and English have added to their respective scripts, but it's also wrong in that it obscures the fact that the idea, the system, the forms, and the principle values (semantics and sounds) are inherited.

Put another way, if the British were to deny in the future that they're not using the 'Latin' alphabet but the 'British alphabet' (hard cultural Brexit?) and demand the Unicode consortium to split it off to a dedicated block (as they did for Coptic, which was initially considered a mere variant of Greek), we then have to wonder whether the French, German, Polish, Portuguese languages all should get their own dedicated block. That of course is denying the fact that major parts of Europe all use the same Latin alphabet, each with their own quirks and flavors added according to locale.

So when "you call them kanji, they're Japanese characters" but only with respect to usage, meaning, sound, and sometimes form, but not with respect to the overall system or character repertoire, which is shared with Chinese.

Also this entire branch of the thread is dangling from a faulty premise in The Fine Article, viz. "Japan’s kanji alphabet", which screams "writer knows zilch about this". Kanji are not an alphabet. Maybe they mixed it up and wanted to write "Japan's kana alphabet" which is sort-of similar but less wrong. It's acceptable if you think of an 'alphabet' as 'glyph repertoire', but then Cuneiform (or any of the roughly 10~15 orthographies and languages from Sumerian to Ugaritic) would be an 'alphabet' too (only somewhat true for Ugaritic, which is esssentially an abjad).

I have to admit that there's apparently no very commonly used word that comes to mind to complete the phrase "Japan's kana ___" that is not wrong ('alphabet'), or specific ('syllabary'), but general and could also be used to fill the gaps in "the Sumerian cuneiform ___", "Chinese ??? ___", "Egyptian demotic ___", "Egyptian hieroglyphics ___", except for "glyph repertoire". "Inventory" is maybe less arcane but also very generic. "Glyph" in the sense of "symbol used for writing" is maybe too academic for a lot of people. "Characters" is another popular choice. "Chinese characters", "Japanese Kana characters", ... but "Latin characters"? Maybe. "Character set" has become a comparatively widely used term already, so yeah.

> Kanji are very much not syllabic. But Chinese characters are.

The even more interesting aspect that (strangely enough) people like John DeFrancis apparently glossed over when discussing the nature of the CJK writing systems is that Japanese is quite a bit closer to 'ideographic' writing. For one thing, the phonetic clues that DeFrancis rightfully stresses so much are often much less useful in Japanese, and on the other hand, characters often have both a 'borrowed' and a 'native' reading while retaining the basic meaning; for example, 犬 can be read 'ken' (a reading borrowed from Chinese) or 'inu' (an indigenous reading), both signifying 'dog'. These characters work like Hindu-Arabic numerals in that the writing indicates am 'idea', a sense (a numerical value) that can be read out in multiple different sounds depending on language, or even within one language (ex. 3, 3rd, 30; 2, 2nd, 20).

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#53

Seems relevant to mention https://dumbcuneiform.com/ here. I haven't ordered from them, but was always amused by the idea.

Dang. They lead by saying they'll translate your short message. And their marketing image shows the message "Girl, are you a beaver? Cuz daaaammmm!" I was really looking forward to seeing how that got translated into something other than English. But in the fine print, they say this instead: > We take the letters from your message and transliterate by syllable, as nearly as we can, into [Old Persian] cuneiform.

Old Persian cuneiform was designed from scratch and is essentially an alphabet. It has almost nothing in common with Sumerian Cuneiform, which is what most people think of if they refer to "cuneiform".

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No J, U, W, and, prior to ~230BC, also no G; around that time also no Z which had been disfavored; almost no K which was barely used if at all, and Y was a distinctively Greek-only letter in Roman times, so that gives you 20 or 21 letters: ABCDEFHI(K)LMNOPQRSTVX for the Latin alphabet.

A lot of Pompeii graffiti is the alphabet. For example: https://www.ancientgraffiti.org/Graffiti/graffito/AGP-EDR167... 21 letters. It's post-3rd-century and includes the G; you might have remembered an accurate statistic ("20 or 21 letters") while forgetting to count your alphabet, which only contains 19 or 20. K is barely used, but you wouldn't be able to argue that it wasn't used at all. It's used in "kal.", which…

> count your alphabet, which only contains 19 or 20

off-by-one errors are to be expected...

K is such a fringe case. I checked back and you're right, it was consistently used for that specific case 'kal.' and for some names. Interestingly though I don't think any (major) romance language retained that spelling afterwards. It's a bit like the British 'ö' in 'Coöperative'. Given that I remember one single time I saw that spelling in the wild while visiting the UK, should I now go and write angry letters to all editors that "English really has 27 letters!!"? How rare is a letter allowed to be used before we declare it "not part of the alphabet"?

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Pompeii graffiti is the alphabet. For example: https://www.ancientgraffiti.org/Graffiti/graffito/AGP-EDR167... 21 letters. It's post-3rd-century and includes the G; you might have remembered an accurate statistic ("20 or 21 letters") while forgetting to count your alphabet, which only contains 19 or 20. K is barely used, but you wouldn't be able to argue that it wasn't used at all. It's used in "kal.", which…

> count your alphabet, which only contains 19 or 20 off-by-one errors are to be expected... K is such a fringe case. I checked back and you're right, it was consistently used for that specific case 'kal.' and for some names. Interestingly though I don't think any (major) romance language retained that spelling afterwards. It's a bit like the British 'ö' in 'Coöperative'. Given that I remember one single time I saw th…

> It's a bit like the British 'ö' in 'Coöperative'. Given that I remember one single time I saw that spelling in the wild while visiting the UK, should I now go and write angry letters to all editors that "English really has 27 letters!!"?

Well, no. The 'ö' in 'coöperative' is not a single grapheme; it's two graphemes. The same mark, which we might call U+0308 COMBINING DIAERESIS, is used with the same significance on any arbitrary letter (OK, any vowel), indicating that the letter is not part of a digraph and should be interpreted alone. This is how the distinction is drawn in writing between a coöp [where hippies work; each 'o' is a separate vowel] and a coop [where chickens live; the 'oo' is a single vowel].

The example I generally use to illustrate the conceptual difference is that, in Mandarin pinyin, é and è represent identical vowels, whereas in French é and è represent two different vowels. There's just one letter "e" in the pinyin example (along with two tone markings), but there are two letters in the French example.

(The French themselves would disagree - they don't include letters like è in their official alphabet - but they are wrong.)

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dang. They lead by saying they'll translate your short message. And their marketing image shows the message "Girl, are you a beaver? Cuz daaaammmm!" I was really looking forward to seeing how that got translated into something other than English. But in the fine print, they say this instead: > We take the letters from your message and transliterate by syllable, as nearly as we can, into [Old Persian] cuneiform.

Old Persian cuneiform was designed from scratch and is essentially an alphabet. It has almost nothing in common with Sumerian Cuneiform, which is what most people think of if they refer to "cuneiform".

I thought it was a strange choice, not because I think anyone ordering from that site has an opinion on the merits of different types of cuneiform, but because I think the Old Persian glyphs are much simpler and will therefore appear less ornamental than e.g. Akkadian would.

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#57
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old Persian cuneiform was designed from scratch and is essentially an alphabet. It has almost nothing in common with Sumerian Cuneiform, which is what most people think of if they refer to "cuneiform".

I thought it was a strange choice, not because I think anyone ordering from that site has an opinion on the merits of different types of cuneiform, but because I think the Old Persian glyphs are much simpler and will therefore appear less ornamental than e.g. Akkadian would.

Those who do have an opinion of the merits of different types of cuneiform are ordering custom items from Jeremiah Peterson.

The choice of Old Persian cuneiform is lazy, much like those Egyptian cartouche name necklaces that use a hieroglyphic alphabet rather than even attempting to write out a name as ancient Egyptians would.

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#58

The expert from the videos, Irving Finkel, is a wonderful speaker and personality. I highly recommend watching his lectures and British museum feature on YouTube if you’re interested in the ancient world.

Not to mention his book, about when he found an Cuneiform tablet circa 1800BC telling the story of Noah and the flood, which included more detailed instructions on how to build an ark than the biblical accounts and so he went and built it.

Nice article: https://www.telegraphindia.com/7-days/the-ark-that-finkel-bu...

Excellent lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_fkpZSnz2I

Re: How to write in Cuneiform

#59

The expert from the videos, Irving Finkel, is a wonderful speaker and personality. I highly recommend watching his lectures and British museum feature on YouTube if you’re interested in the ancient world.

I like his video about playing the royal game of Ur too.
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