Earlier quoted context omitted.
Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem.
> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't chang…
The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
51–60 of 354 posts
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#52If someone invoices me, and I don’t pay the full amount in a timely manner, what do you think will happen? Late fees, reports to credit bureaus, collections agencies hounding me, maybe even lawsuits? If insurance companies underpay, doctors should treat that no differently. Don’t appeal through the insurance company itself. Imagine I go to a store and pay less than the full amount at the register, and then the grocer…
Sure but imagine you hire a landscaper and they send you a $40 invoice for $20 of law cutting and $20 of leaf cleanup. You go look outside and see a ton of leafs so you just send them $20. That's the insurance companies' stance. The work you performed is this and so our agreed upon rate is this.
(That’s because you’re a major, well-known insurer and pay an industry high 35%. The guy who mows the Medicare yard might pay 40 cents on the dollar. The person mowing the Medicaid yard has to file 87 forms to get paid his $6.)
Source: I’ve co-owned doctors offices.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#53For what it's worth, this sort of gaming works both ways. Many medical administrations do everything they can to upcode in order to bill for more money. The whole system is a mess.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#54This sort of thing gets to two critical problems of the American system: 1. It is largely designed to make money, not actually help patients. So every step in the healthcare chain that can extract a bit of value will do so, largely to boost profits. 2. Insane complexity with limited transparency. How much will something cost? Hard to tell. Will it be covered? Who knows? On the opacity, I have one informative anecdote…
Oh, someone knew but the doctors office wanted to do the expensive thing and get paid (either by you or the insurance)
Not saying the blood test was unnecessary but we have no idea what communication happened between the doctor and insurance company. Did they possibly recommend a less expensive test and the doctor decided that'd make him less money so he went forward anyway?
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#55So if you think you do require some care, just ask the medical practice whether they accept self-pay and then you can decide if it's worth paying or not. If you think it's not, it's unlikely someone else will if they have to pay on your behalf.
Essentially, place yourself in the role of each participant:
- patient: wants to maximize care, money no object since it isn't theirs
- medical practice: wants to maximize money spent on care
- insurer: wants to minimize money spent on care
Normally, the first two would be happy to collude to charge the third any amount of money since they'd both get what they want. And that is indeed what happens. So you get the natural result that the insurer doesn't want to support certain payments even if they were kind and pure-hearted. That they don't want to when they're neither should then not be a surprise.
You can remove that pressure by turning the interaction into:
- patient: wants to maximize care with minimized cost
- practice: wants to minimize care with maximized cost
The pressures between the two parties are now opposite and you can find the market equilibrium. With this opposition you'll suddenly find that patients start complaining about doctors ordering unnecessary procedures and so on, just like insurers claim in the other model.
You can also work through with the other versions to model where equilibrium will set in and see if it's where it does. Most of the time you don't need to assume any moral valence for the participants. They might as well be machines. It is their roles that determine how they act, not their personalities.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#56We'll never know, but: I wonder what would happen if we moved the "medically necessary" requirement burden of proof from the doctor/patient to the insurer. So the insurer would be required to pay out a claim regardless of whether the insurer thought it was medically necessary, but their recourse could be to try to claw it back post-payment.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't chang…
Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#58We'll never know, but: I wonder what would happen if we moved the "medically necessary" requirement burden of proof from the doctor/patient to the insurer. So the insurer would be required to pay out a claim regardless of whether the insurer thought it was medically necessary, but their recourse could be to try to claw it back post-payment.
If you're saying they need to be forced to pay whatever invoice comes to them and start legal battles for each suspect case then yeah... that doesn't seem feasible.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#59This sort of thing gets to two critical problems of the American system: 1. It is largely designed to make money, not actually help patients. So every step in the healthcare chain that can extract a bit of value will do so, largely to boost profits. 2. Insane complexity with limited transparency. How much will something cost? Hard to tell. Will it be covered? Who knows? On the opacity, I have one informative anecdote…
> No one knows, do the test and insurance will decide Oh, someone knew but the doctors office wanted to do the expensive thing and get paid (either by you or the insurance) Not saying the blood test was unnecessary but we have no idea what communication happened between the doctor and insurance company. Did they possibly recommend a less expensive test and the doctor decided that'd make him less money so he went forw…
This is not just because of the capriciousness of insurance adjusters, but because they have to deal with all the 273 different variations of insurance plans that people who come through their offices might have.
In general, a doctor's primary goal will be to get you good care.
An insurance company's only goal nowadays is to make as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.
Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'
#60People get annoyed at insurers who will deny treatment but most of the time you can just pay it yourself. The government has decided that everyone should pay for health insurance but you'll never be denied care if you pay for it yourself. So if you think you do require some care, just ask the medical practice whether they accept self-pay and then you can decide if it's worth paying or not. If you think it's not, it's…
- patient: wants to maximize care, money no object since it isn't theirs
- medical practice: wants minimize care since money is based on number of patients not care
- insurer (government): wants to minimize money spent on care while maximizing care because money comes from healthy citizens who pay taxes