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The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

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Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem.

> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't chang…

Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#52
post #3

If someone invoices me, and I don’t pay the full amount in a timely manner, what do you think will happen? Late fees, reports to credit bureaus, collections agencies hounding me, maybe even lawsuits? If insurance companies underpay, doctors should treat that no differently. Don’t appeal through the insurance company itself. Imagine I go to a store and pay less than the full amount at the register, and then the grocer…

Sure but imagine you hire a landscaper and they send you a $40 invoice for $20 of law cutting and $20 of leaf cleanup. You go look outside and see a ton of leafs so you just send them $20. That's the insurance companies' stance. The work you performed is this and so our agreed upon rate is this.

But in reality, the landscaper bills you for $100, you say you’re only going to pay $90, and then you write them a check for $31.50.

(That’s because you’re a major, well-known insurer and pay an industry high 35%. The guy who mows the Medicare yard might pay 40 cents on the dollar. The person mowing the Medicaid yard has to file 87 forms to get paid his $6.)

Source: I’ve co-owned doctors offices.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#54

This sort of thing gets to two critical problems of the American system: 1. It is largely designed to make money, not actually help patients. So every step in the healthcare chain that can extract a bit of value will do so, largely to boost profits. 2. Insane complexity with limited transparency. How much will something cost? Hard to tell. Will it be covered? Who knows? On the opacity, I have one informative anecdote…

> No one knows, do the test and insurance will decide

Oh, someone knew but the doctors office wanted to do the expensive thing and get paid (either by you or the insurance)

Not saying the blood test was unnecessary but we have no idea what communication happened between the doctor and insurance company. Did they possibly recommend a less expensive test and the doctor decided that'd make him less money so he went forward anyway?

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#55
People get annoyed at insurers who will deny treatment but most of the time you can just pay it yourself. The government has decided that everyone should pay for health insurance but you'll never be denied care if you pay for it yourself.

So if you think you do require some care, just ask the medical practice whether they accept self-pay and then you can decide if it's worth paying or not. If you think it's not, it's unlikely someone else will if they have to pay on your behalf.

Essentially, place yourself in the role of each participant:

- patient: wants to maximize care, money no object since it isn't theirs

- medical practice: wants to maximize money spent on care

- insurer: wants to minimize money spent on care

Normally, the first two would be happy to collude to charge the third any amount of money since they'd both get what they want. And that is indeed what happens. So you get the natural result that the insurer doesn't want to support certain payments even if they were kind and pure-hearted. That they don't want to when they're neither should then not be a surprise.

You can remove that pressure by turning the interaction into:

- patient: wants to maximize care with minimized cost

- practice: wants to minimize care with maximized cost

The pressures between the two parties are now opposite and you can find the market equilibrium. With this opposition you'll suddenly find that patients start complaining about doctors ordering unnecessary procedures and so on, just like insurers claim in the other model.

You can also work through with the other versions to model where equilibrium will set in and see if it's where it does. Most of the time you don't need to assume any moral valence for the participants. They might as well be machines. It is their roles that determine how they act, not their personalities.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#56

We'll never know, but: I wonder what would happen if we moved the "medically necessary" requirement burden of proof from the doctor/patient to the insurer. So the insurer would be required to pay out a claim regardless of whether the insurer thought it was medically necessary, but their recourse could be to try to claw it back post-payment.

Are you talking overnight? If so, that’s an easy predictable outcome.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Find some doctors, nurses, researchers, manufacturers etc etc who will work for no money and we can remove money from the problem. Not being for profit doesn't mean you don't pay people. Further, I wonder how the Sixth Amendment works then? So many non-profit people working for... no money? This "work for no money argument" is so incredibly weak, I had to make sure I quoted the argument so the person wouldn't chang…

Eventually everyone works for profit if they get paid. Spending time only is pure profit in money.

A reasonable wage or salary isn’t usually considered “profit” in a legal sense. This is why nonprofits can still pay employees. Any money that is left over after costs (including wages/salaries) needs to be reinvested, spent on the organizational mission, or held for future use, not distributed through dividends or other distributions as in a for-profit enterprise.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#58

We'll never know, but: I wonder what would happen if we moved the "medically necessary" requirement burden of proof from the doctor/patient to the insurer. So the insurer would be required to pay out a claim regardless of whether the insurer thought it was medically necessary, but their recourse could be to try to claw it back post-payment.

They'd most likely go bankrupt. There is already an incentive for them to spend on medical care due to the Medical Loss Ratio (MLR) which caps their profits on collected premiums.

If you're saying they need to be forced to pay whatever invoice comes to them and start legal battles for each suspect case then yeah... that doesn't seem feasible.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#59

This sort of thing gets to two critical problems of the American system: 1. It is largely designed to make money, not actually help patients. So every step in the healthcare chain that can extract a bit of value will do so, largely to boost profits. 2. Insane complexity with limited transparency. How much will something cost? Hard to tell. Will it be covered? Who knows? On the opacity, I have one informative anecdote…

> No one knows, do the test and insurance will decide Oh, someone knew but the doctors office wanted to do the expensive thing and get paid (either by you or the insurance) Not saying the blood test was unnecessary but we have no idea what communication happened between the doctor and insurance company. Did they possibly recommend a less expensive test and the doctor decided that'd make him less money so he went forw…

No, I assure you, it is very common for doctors' offices not to know whether a particular procedure will be covered.

This is not just because of the capriciousness of insurance adjusters, but because they have to deal with all the 273 different variations of insurance plans that people who come through their offices might have.

In general, a doctor's primary goal will be to get you good care.

An insurance company's only goal nowadays is to make as much money as possible for as little effort as possible.

Re: The fight between doctors and insurance companies over 'downcoding'

#60

People get annoyed at insurers who will deny treatment but most of the time you can just pay it yourself. The government has decided that everyone should pay for health insurance but you'll never be denied care if you pay for it yourself. So if you think you do require some care, just ask the medical practice whether they accept self-pay and then you can decide if it's worth paying or not. If you think it's not, it's…

How about this one:

- patient: wants to maximize care, money no object since it isn't theirs

- medical practice: wants minimize care since money is based on number of patients not care

- insurer (government): wants to minimize money spent on care while maximizing care because money comes from healthy citizens who pay taxes

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