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State Terror, American Style

paulkrugman.substack.com

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Re: State Terror, American Style

#51

Post by lapcat »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #45
lapcat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two parties are not the same, but the privately funded electoral system of the US applies to all parties. Democrats cannot escape the corrupting influence of money. Consider, as a revealing example, the Patriot Act of 2001. There was more resisitance to it from Democrats than from Republicans, yet there was still not nearly enough resistance. In the Senate, the vote was 98-1, with only Democrat Russ Feingold agai…

What do you want people to do about the current crisis? What action could be taken to resolve the situation today?

This appears to be a marked change in subject. How are your questions directly responding to my comment?

I would say that, if taken literally, resolving the situation today is not possible. We're currently living in a deep hole that was a very long time in the making (one might even say hundreds of years in the making), and it would likely take a very long time to climb our way out of it. There's no magical, immediate solution.

The US political system has always been corrupted by money, but modern technology has enabled a vast increase in the scale and efficiency of such corruption. It used to be said, "all politics is local," but now it might be said that all politics is international.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#52

Post by actionfromafar »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49
ModernMech wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not be naive -- scaring people into compliance is what they do to conservatives via Fox News. With liberals, deploying the military to their cities is about instigating actual violence, so they can imprison and kill them.

Ah. They actually want a violent confrontation. That would explain some things.

Yes. Even Putin needed a pretext (in his case false flag operations) in the beginning of his reign. But any kind commotion, large enough, will do in a pinch. The dictator playbook is different in a newly minted dictatorship and a mature one. Rules become progressively less important the longer it goes on.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#53

Post by ModernMech »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49
ModernMech wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not be naive -- scaring people into compliance is what they do to conservatives via Fox News. With liberals, deploying the military to their cities is about instigating actual violence, so they can imprison and kill them.

Ah. They actually want a violent confrontation. That would explain some things.

Yes, if you look back at Trump's reaction to J6, you can tell he reveled in the violence that day. Pausing and rewinding Fox News to watch the crowds while not picking up the phone or tweeting to quell it; when he did tweet it served to instigate bloodlust for Mike Pence; and when he was confronted by Kevin McCarthy, who begged Trump to call off the mob, Trump said "Well, Kevin, I guess they are just more upset about the election theft than you are".

So yeah, it's all about creating a violent confrontation to assuage a galactic, battered ego.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#54

Post by foogazi »

iseletsk wrote: post #47

I visited Portland a month ago. There are security guards at each pharmacy and supermarket. I got screamed at by a violent/homeless person because I walked on her block. Some streets - and we are talking downtown/center - I was just afraid or disgusted to walk on. So, yes, Portland is a dump that needs to get cleaned up.

> I was just afraid or disgusted to walk on.

Sounds like a job for the Texas National Guard

Re: State Terror, American Style

#55

Post by sickofparadox »

HankStallone wrote: post #46
bko wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'democracy' is used 4 times. Arguments like this: >But as I said, this isn’t about crime. It’s about paranoid conspiracy theories and an attempt to dismantle democracy. Most people don't think of 'normal law enforcement', they just see crime, people in the country illegally and others trying to make law enforcements job harder. They don't care about these types of arguments about how this is different from "normal" l…

"Democracy" in these discussions increasingly just means the 21st-century bureaucratic status quo. It no longer has anything to do with antiquated notions like "the will of the people." If the people want something different, they're trying to dismantle democracy and should be ignored and given what the managerial class knows is best for them. Persuading the voters is seen as a last resort, a distasteful task that re…

>Democracy" in these discussions increasingly just means the 21st-century bureaucratic status quo.

It is for this reason that so many young people, left and right, are latching onto non or even anti-democratic political ideologies. The systems themselves have become the highest good as opposed to what they were originally designed for. Due process no longer means a swift and fair trial, it means endless shifting paperwork and appeals that make our judiciary collapse on itself. Building anything is no longer about the funds and means to build it but about the willpower to trudge through 5+ layers of approval from councils and faceless agencies. All the while, elite overproduction has created a whole class of "expert" who cannot understand the world 3 inches from their face but are supposed to be trusted at all times to make the best decision on our behalf.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#56

Post by tdeck »

foogazi wrote: post #31
tdeck wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was after Trump's secretary of war said the following on the same stage: “We unleash overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy,” Hegseth said. “We also don’t fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our warfighters to intimidate, demoralize, hunt and kill the enemies of our country. No more politically correct and overbearing rules of engagement.” It's not exactly subtle. The message i…

All very vague We all have an understanding of the power of the US military and its foreign agencies But it’s tough to square this quote with that - what is going to change ? What does a nuclear superpower need to be untied ? Mass world surveillance, bombing foreign countries? All of that has happened - what more is needed and why ?

In the past there was a sense that certain kinds of war crimes needed to at least be done secretly and sparingly by the US military.

Although this statement might be seen as a new era of honesty, I'm not looking forward to the next stage. If Hegseth thinks the US war machine is too restrained now, imagine what things won't even be surprising in a few years.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#57

Post by AnimalMuppet »

actionfromafar wrote: post #7
srean wrote: post #6

What I found so remarkable was Trump's address to the generals. I am a little queasy of throwing the fascism word around willy nilly, but the story of "internal enemies" could not have been more formulaic.

Yes. The "swear an oath to the leader" comes a bit later in the game. At this pace though, who knows? It could be really soon. Something drastic must be done about the midterms, or Trump could be impeached, and that is not in the cards of these people.

I fear that, yes, Trump is on a path to do something drastic to prevent the midterms.

It will either be 1) war, 2) martial law, or 3) declaring an insurrection.

1 is dicey. It will require, first, a declared war, not just Trump saying so, and second, the courts agreeing (against all precedent) that we can't hold elections in wartime. This isn't Ukraine; our constitution doesn't have a provision for elections not happening during war. So, while Trump has sounded like he likes the idea, this one is unlikely to work.

2 or 3 seem more workable. At the moment at least some members of the administration seem to be leaning toward 3 (see, for example, Miller stating that a judge ruling against Trump sending troops to Portland was "a judicial insurrection").

Note that when I say "Trump is on the path to", that does not mean that he will inevitably do so. We will see whether he will restrain himself, or whether others around him can restrain him. And if they don't, then we will see whether the courts can.

And if they can't, then we'll see if there's ever a point where the military will decide that his orders are illegal, and their oath is to the constitution.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#58

Post by tdeck »

lapcat wrote: post #51
throwaway173738 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you want people to do about the current crisis? What action could be taken to resolve the situation today?

This appears to be a marked change in subject. How are your questions directly responding to my comment? I would say that, if taken literally, resolving the situation today is not possible. We're currently living in a deep hole that was a very long time in the making (one might even say hundreds of years in the making), and it would likely take a very long time to climb our way out of it. There's no magical, immediat…

Just to add to this.

We (many people) voted for Biden in 2020, and that was supposed to be at least part of the solution. What happened? He appointed an AG who he knew would drag his feet and not hold Trump accountable. He continued Trump's illegal asylum policies and even kept building Trump's border wall. They played chicken with Republicans to see who could shovel more money into ICE, and spent 4 years repeating Republican anti-immigrant fear mongering but then saying "we shouldn't go that far on policy". They did almost nothing about Roe V. Wade being overturned, despite having an unprecedented leak that gave them months of notice before the decision.

And what was done to fundamentally restrain the power of the presidency in preparation for the possibility of a Trump win? Well, we had a lot of talk about "norms" and finger wagging. I'm sure glad that finger and those norms are here to protect people I care about now. If only there were something more they could have done.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#59

Post by tdeck »

ModernMech wrote: post #53
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah. They actually want a violent confrontation. That would explain some things.

Yes, if you look back at Trump's reaction to J6, you can tell he reveled in the violence that day. Pausing and rewinding Fox News to watch the crowds while not picking up the phone or tweeting to quell it; when he did tweet it served to instigate bloodlust for Mike Pence; and when he was confronted by Kevin McCarthy, who begged Trump to call off the mob, Trump said "Well, Kevin, I guess they are just more upset about…

Also, he pardoned all those people.

Re: State Terror, American Style

#60

Post by actionfromafar »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #57
actionfromafar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. The "swear an oath to the leader" comes a bit later in the game. At this pace though, who knows? It could be really soon. Something drastic must be done about the midterms, or Trump could be impeached, and that is not in the cards of these people.

I fear that, yes, Trump is on a path to do something drastic to prevent the midterms. It will either be 1) war, 2) martial law, or 3) declaring an insurrection. 1 is dicey. It will require, first, a declared war, not just Trump saying so, and second, the courts agreeing (against all precedent) that we can't hold elections in wartime. This isn't Ukraine; our constitution doesn't have a provision for elections not happ…

Kinda thankful that you didn't continue the if-then after the military. Many possible outcomes after that are really depressing. Almost all options involve China laughing all the way to hegemony.
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