Live data from Hacker News

Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

deviantabstraction.com

51–60 of 62 posts

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#51
post #27

The premise of the article hinges on the fact that it's hard to make predictions, especially about the future: > ... it’s impossible for us to know if a prediction is inevitable or not. But I think that ignores that some predictions are more likely to happen than others. For example, here are two predictions: 1. ASI will be achieved in the next ten years. 2. LLMs will have a large impact on the economy in the next te…

You're absolutely right that predictions exist on a probability spectrum. I focused on the binary for rhetorical clarity, but you're correct that some predictions are more likely than others. That being said, it doesn't change my point about agency. Your prediction #2 (LLMs impacting the economy) seems "almost inevitable" precisely because thousands of people are actively working to make it true. If everyone stopped…

I get that--and it's a good point. But large groups of people do tend to be predictable under certain situations. Is anyone surprised that people hoard staples (toilet paper, etc.) during a crisis?

It reminds me of the time a Scientific American columnist ran a contest. The idea was to submit a number on a postcard. The person who submitted the highest number would win $1 million divided by the winning number.

The publishers almost nixed the contest. They didn't actually have $1 million to give away and they were worried. But the columnist assured them that there was no chance the prize would be even one dollar. As you might expect, the winning number was so ridiculously large that no money had to be sent.

As for LLMs affecting the economy, I think my only uncertainty is in how long it will take for them to be integrated. I think we all agree that even in their current state, they are valuable for certain tasks (e.g., language translation). I'm pretty sure they are economically viable for 90% of support calls. Are they going to displace software developers? Lawyers? Doctors? Even if they don't, the effects will still be large.

If we agree that they are economically viable, then I don't see how they don't have an impact. If a technology saves businesses money, it is going to get deployed. The only wildcard would be regulatory blocks or legislative bans. But you know China is not going to give up on the technology, so any bans will be reversed or circumvented (we'll import products/services from China).

Now, if you don't think LLMs in their current state are economically viable/valuable, then none of that will happen. But (a) that's a different argument, and (b) then people will inevitably choose NOT to deploy LLMs.

I get the desire for agency. I certainly wish I had more control over the course of the future. But people's behavior (in large groups) is almost always downstream of external events. Fukushima has an accident and Germany chooses to give up nuclear power. Inflation in the US goes up and people vote for Donald fraking Trump.

Maybe there will be some event--a Fukushima for AI--that causes a mass change. But absent that, I think LLMs are here to stay.

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When tech leaders say "AGI is inevitable," they're not describing reality; they're shaping it by discouraging attempts to coordinate. No, they're describing reality. As I posted in another comment, progress in technology drops capital requirements for innovation. Even if there's global coordination to stop AGI development right now, progress in tech means that in 30 years someone in their basement could do what Ope…

If this were so, I've yet to see any explanation that accounts for why human cloning has been so successfully prevented, even though it's relatively inexpensive technology, to the point that we have (had?) pet cloning companies selling it as a consumer service.

1. How do you know human cloning has been prevented? Maybe you mean it's not provided as a commercial service, but does that entail it's not happening at all?

2. Preventing the manifestation of physical objects is a lot easier than preventing the dissemination of pure information. AIs are easy to copy, easy to run, and can assist in their own creation, advancement and proliferation, and it only gets easier over time. For an apt analogy, consider a cloning lab where every clone that escaped was compelled to create their own cloning lab, and everything you needed could be bought at any corner store.

3. All cloning requires existing biological organisms to participate at various stages. You need not only the biologists on board, but also the surrogate that has to carry the fetus to term. What do you think will happen when artificial wombs become available?

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#53
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When tech leaders say "AGI is inevitable," they're not describing reality; they're shaping it by discouraging attempts to coordinate. No, they're describing reality. As I posted in another comment, progress in technology drops capital requirements for innovation. Even if there's global coordination to stop AGI development right now, progress in tech means that in 30 years someone in their basement could do what Ope…

"They're describing reality" - No, they're making predictions about the future. If AGI requires 30 years of compute improvements as you say, then it's not reality, it's a forecast contingent on those 30 years of development continuing unimpeded. As for "oppressive regime", we already do this for nuclear and biotech, and most people find it quite palatable! Nuclear materials are tightly controlled globally. Cloning hu…

> No, they're making predictions about the future. If AGI requires 30 years of compute improvements as you say, then it's not reality, it's a forecast contingent on those 30 years of development continuing unimpeded.

The idea that you can develop "good" information technology without enabling the creation of "bad" information technology is pure fantasy, and if your idea is actually that we could halt the progress of information technology wholesale, then that's laughable, sorry to say. Hence the inevitability.

> As for "oppressive regime", we already do this for nuclear and biotech, and most people find it quite palatable!

You mean we do this for raw materials that have inherent scarcity because they are somewhat rare, difficult to mine, and difficult to refine? And you think this natural scarcity is somehow comparable to natural abundance that follows from digital information that can be trivially copied at perfect fidelity?

Furthermore, you've misunderstood what was meant by "oppressive regime". The same technologies that allow us to email each other, make family photo albums and forecast the weather or the stock market are what also enable AI. There is no way in which to suppress AI without also suppressing these other benign uses that everyone enjoys and that enable considerable productivity. This is not comparable to the technology and raw materials for nuclear weapons.

> We've had the knowledge for both for decades, yet basement nukes and basement human clones aren't happening.

You seem awfully confident about declaring the non-existence of something that's inherently underground and thus difficult to measure.

But let's make the comparison of AI to cloning more apt: how confident would you be that cloning won't happen once the knowledge of how to construct artificial wombs is discovered? Now reconsider those probabilities about if such wombs also easy to construct with readily available materials. That's the reality of information technology.

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#57
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment and engaging with my thinking. You're using hindsight to define inevitability, which is exactly the circular reasoning my essay critiques. "It happened widely, therefore it was inevitable" isn't a useful framework, it's survivorship bias. Using your IC example: they became cheap because of massive government investment in the space program and military procurement, not natural law. The Apoll…

I think the concepts are inevitable, not so much the specific implementations. PCs were an inevitable stop on the fairly standard adoption path from many workers to one machine (Mainframes), 1:1 (PCs), many machines to one worker (I have at least 10 computers within arms reach right now). IBM/Windows/Apple weren't inevitable, they were just manifestations of that. ICs weren't inevitable, but commoditized computer par…

> Computers didn't have to happen in the 50s, they could easily have waited 50 or 100 years if we didn't have things like wars or other technological breakthroughs that enabled them.

Not really. While all the Government-funded stuff was going on, International Business Machines was slowly advancing their business machines. There was a long path from the IBM 601 (1931, mechanical multiplication, plugboard programmed), the IBM 602 (1946, mechanical division), the IBM 602A ("a 602 that worked"), the IBM 603 (1946, multiplication and division with vacuum tubes, but still plugboard programmed), the IBM 604 (1948, with 1,250 tubes), and finally the IBM 650 (1954, true stored program, tube logic, drum main memory, Knuth's first computer.) The government-funded machines were more advanced but very low volume. All of the 600 series machines were mass-produced and had long operating careers making businesses go.

Transistors had to progress more before IBM business computers became transistorized. The IBM 1401. (1959, all transistor, 12,000 built) launched business computing in a big way. From then on, the business side, rather than the government side, drove the technology. All that would have happened without WWII. WWII held up the IBM 603 electronic multiplier by several years; IBM was trying out electronic arithmetic in the late 1930s.

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this were so, I've yet to see any explanation that accounts for why human cloning has been so successfully prevented, even though it's relatively inexpensive technology, to the point that we have (had?) pet cloning companies selling it as a consumer service.

1. How do you know human cloning has been prevented? Maybe you mean it's not provided as a commercial service, but does that entail it's not happening at all? 2. Preventing the manifestation of physical objects is a lot easier than preventing the dissemination of pure information. AIs are easy to copy, easy to run, and can assist in their own creation, advancement and proliferation, and it only gets easier over time.…

1. Because neither Elon Musk nor Kim Jong-Un have a clone. That is, if human cloning were being carried out, we'd see clones of famous and/or powerful people. Is there some chance it happened in a lab somewhere and kept extremely secret? Sure. Is it a technology that's available to the groups that could pay for it? No, it would be very visible (eventually, at least).

2. Computers powerful enough to train AI are also physical objects, ones that consume gigantic amounts of power as well. Maybe some day we'll have computers that can train Claude on 50kW of power running in your pocket, but maybe not. There are fundamental limits to how much computation you can get per watt, and we're getting closer to them. So, preventing AI may be as simple as banning use of any computer cluster that consumes more than some wattage, say 1000kW, without government audit, while also banning research into more computationally efficient ways of doing AI.

3. This is not a real problem, since some biologists that are into cloning may have wombs of their own to gestate the clone. Artifical wombs, even cheap ones, would change nothing in relation to cloning (except maybe reduce the diversity of rogue cloning research teams - angering the criminal enterprise DEI department, I'm sure).

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#59
post #13

There is also a great article about the same subject from Tom Renner: https://tomrenner.com/posts/llm-inevitabilism/ Sam, Elon, Zuck are conmen, husks of people, empty inside and not knowing what to do with themselves but hoard money. In their pointless quest to become the proverbial dragon on a mountain of gold, they are trying to control, bully and manipulate the world to their vision of how it should be. We know h…

Musk has said a lot about getting badly bullied at school, those bullies were probably bullied at home as well :/

Re: Why Tech Inevitability is Self-Defeating

#60
post #44
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the comment and engaging with my thinking. You're using hindsight to define inevitability, which is exactly the circular reasoning my essay critiques. "It happened widely, therefore it was inevitable" isn't a useful framework, it's survivorship bias. Using your IC example: they became cheap because of massive government investment in the space program and military procurement, not natural law. The Apoll…

>Using your IC example: they became cheap because of massive government investment in the space program and military procurement, not natural law. There is an underlying natural law to IC's being cheap without any government involvement because printing out circuits with chemicals and light like a photocopier is inherently cheaper than the alternatives of vacuum tubes or discrete components mounted on a board. (For n…

I agree that physical and economic constraints matter, but the point I’m making is that cost curves themselves are contingent on human choices. ICs didn’t suddenly become cheap on their own; they became cheap because governments and corporations poured billions into scaling them. That’s not denying the underlying advantage, but showing how rhetoric of inevitability erases the political and economic decisions that actually drive those curves.
Post reply on HN