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An opinionated critique of Duolingo

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Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#51

Anecdata: my daughter, when a rising high school sophomore in 2023, used DL to skip a full year^1 and join upperclassmen in Spanish 3. She went on to take AP Spanish, earn college credit w/ her AP test score, and join the Spanish National Honors Society. She credits DL w/ giving her the confidence -- and vocabulary -- to make the leap when she did. Of course that doesn't mean critiques aren't valid, and YMMV, but it…

DL was a core part of my German studies before my first kid was born so I could start speaking my family's heritage language with her. I spent about six months working through the entire tree (this was a small-ish tree, back in 2016), supplementing with Wiktionary + Hammer's German Grammar and by the time she was born, I was contacting tutors to work with them and saying "I'm guessing I'm around low-B1" only to have them evaluate me as probably B2 for spoken language.

The caveat here was that I was intensely motivated, my native language (English) is related to German, and I already had learned two other languages, so I had internalized a good process to learn a language (plus an interest in linguistics meant I could read "here's how the subjunctive is constructed in German" and not have to read fifty pages of explanation about what the subjunctive even is.

It CANNOT be overstated how useful it is to understand grammatical concepts at an academic level when you're learning a new language. There's so much that can be conveyed with one term instead of twenty examples you have to read over and over to grok what this construction is for. Pay attention in seventh grade English when you're being taught what passive voice is, pay attention when you're learning about mood. When you hear past and past perfect, remember it! It will make things SO much easier when you decide to acquire another language.

(Edit) Even very different languages like Japanese still have a lot of the same concepts. The most complicated verb ending IMO is the "causative-passive," and many of my classmates struggled to learn it. IMO it's probably because of the "passive" part. But passive voice exists in English, and if you can recognize it, the construction in Japanese is really easy. "To be allowed to XYZ" or "To be forced to XYZ" if you translate in your head (like most learners do at first). You speedrun the whole concept but for actually learning the mechanics of constructing it: for one category of verbs, drop -ru and add -saserareru. For the other, drop the -u and replace with -an and then -serareru.

Bam, if you already know what passive means, you're done. You've literally just learned the entirety of it, a thing I watched take a full week in my university class.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#52
I first used Duolingo back in 2018. That was how I started learning French. I majored in Classics in college and had taken Spanish all eight years of middle school and high school, so my vocab progress was very fast. Within that year, I felt like Duolingo had become too slow, and decided to switch my learning over to reading books and watching movies in French.

Earlier this year, I got back on Duolingo because my partner and her brothers were trying it out, so it was more a social thing than anything. I was on it for about a month before we all agreed that the quality was too poor and the pace too slow for it to be worthwhile.

Duolingo is a case study in a good-enough-to-ship product that needed improvements and instead got dark-patterned into something much, much worse than it had been previously. I'm sure there are many superior platforms for language learning online today. I've gone back to books and movies. I'm currently enjoying watching Blaise le blasé (a Quebecois cartoon) and reading Chair de poule (Goosebumps in translation).

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#53
A lot of Duolingo criticisms to me read like someone saying "I was walking on a home treadmill for 30 minutes every day but I didn't really get in shape until I started spending 5 hours each week in the gym with a professional trainer."

Yes, obviously an actual class with a qualified teacher is going to teach you a language faster than Duolingo. Obviously you will learn faster if you move to a foreign country or if you have people around you to regularly speak your target language. Obviously you can cheat at Duolingo and not learn anything, just like you could turn the speed way down on your home treadmill and not really get any exercise.

But the treadmill, used properly, is still significantly better than an extra 30 minutes sitting on the sofa, and a ten minute language lesson will still teach you more than no language lesson at all.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#54

I have a 2000+ day streak on Duolingo, mostly learning Russian. The app has got progressively worse since I started, for a while just giving me the same lesson every single day. I of course finished the course years ago, but I keep up with my one lesson a day to keep the bird happy. I find the UI incredibly annoying, I've disabled all the sounds and animations that I can. You might ask why don't I stop? Well I want t…

Last year they replaced all the recordings of native speakers with ML-generated recordings, in both Russian and Ukrainian (probably other languages too but those are the two I have). The ML-generated recordings are terrible, for example they can't deal with the ambiguity betweeen vse and vsyo (written identically in Russian) so they always say vsyo. They'll sometimes randomly say the names of individual letters instead of reading the word, particularly the hard and soft signs. One recording is for a sentence with the word "tochka" (period, as at the end of the sentence) and instead of reading "tochka" the recording just has a silence there.

I've reported these issues hundreds of times since they added the ML recordings and none of them have been fixed.

But like you I keep using it just to get that little daily exposure to the language. I suspect it's useless for actually learning a new language, but it's maybe just barely good enough to keep up a language you already know.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#55

Both of my parents are teachers of a European language. They both have phd's in linguistics, and rate very highly with students (who basically adore them). All of this context to say that not once has anyone using Duolingo been able to "test out" of the first ("101") class that they teach. Duolingo self-learners come in with a very unequal mix of vocabulary and... not much else. Unable to use declension properly [0],…

issen looks rather interesting at a first glance. Thanks for the pointer.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#56
I think Duo could be a good way to get started on language learning, but it is not effective on its own. What it lacks is an obvious way to graduate from its call and response mechanic to synthesis, as in creating your own sentences and participating in conversation.

Tandem was a good way for me to improve my Spanish to the point that I felt comfortable traveling. I dropped Duolingo pretty soon after starting on Tandem. Language learning is much more than memorizing words. Unfortunately, Tandem is also basically a dating site for many people, and scammers are using it as well, and this makes it hard to use consistently for language learning.

Once you get the minimal confidence that you think you could find your way back to the airport or bus station in another country, you really should just go visit. Couchsurfing really helped me meet people in many cities. I don't know if the community is still as strong, but it used to have regular meetups of people within a city who are interested in talking with foreigners. You don't need to stay on people's couches if you don't want to.

A lot of people seem to be learning English through multiplayer online gaming. I do not know if this approach works for learning other languages, as I am not inclined to participate.

I can't stress it enough, though. Any language learning approach that isn't writing or conversation is going to max out at a very low level.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#57
Duolingo and many other apps avoid the hardest and most essential skill: translating from your language to the other.

It's often easy to guess what words mean especially with the help of cognates and other similarities between languages. 99% of Duolingo mobile is like this. Even when you see words in your language first, your task is to tap the presented foreigin words in order.

You'll never learn to speak this way. The best way is to flip the order:

    The language is difficult -> La lengua es difícil.
But that's a slog by comparison. The dopamine rush isn't there, which I guess is why no one does this[0].

I actually wrote a script to build Anki decks from Duolingo and Busuu[2] which did this. The front front is a short sentence. The back is a transliteration and translation. Then I discovered Mango Languages (free through many US public libraries) that's the same with great audio and a pretty good flash card system.

I used that strategy 2 hours a day for two months, and I learned enough Italian to argue with a cab driver whose meter "non funziona."

[0]: In Duolingo's defense, the desktop version isn't a tap fest, but there's not enough opportunities to

[1]: https://mangolanguages.com (not sure why no one knows about this)

[2]: https://busuu.com (probably the best for grammar)

[3]: https://memrise.com (very, very good AI text convos with corrections provided and mixed language support)

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#58

I think Duo could be a good way to get started on language learning, but it is not effective on its own. What it lacks is an obvious way to graduate from its call and response mechanic to synthesis, as in creating your own sentences and participating in conversation. Tandem was a good way for me to improve my Spanish to the point that I felt comfortable traveling. I dropped Duolingo pretty soon after starting on Tand…

See, that's my issue. If Duo is only a good way to "get started," then it isn't a good way to LEARN a language, as in learn how to actually use it to a level approaching fluency. The whole thing is false advertising, not because of the specifics, but because of the advertising which makes people think (and yes, millions believe(d) it) that you can become fluent by using Duolingo.

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#59
post #57

Duolingo and many other apps avoid the hardest and most essential skill: translating from your language to the other. It's often easy to guess what words mean especially with the help of cognates and other similarities between languages. 99% of Duolingo mobile is like this. Even when you see words in your language first, your task is to tap the presented foreigin words in order. You'll never learn to speak this way.…

^^^^^

Re: An opinionated critique of Duolingo

#60
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I grew to hate the gamification I don't understand people who say this. I completely ignore the gamification. If I don't feel like doing it one day, I don't do it. I don't even know what the leagues are, despite seeing people talk about them. I never look at any score or badge that they provide. Why do people care about this?

Duolingo makes it hard to ignore - the whole app is gamified. It's like ignoring water while swimming in the ocean. Yes, you can turn off notifications, but sometimes they were helpful. I think gamification triggers some innate feature of our brain, just like TikTok or Reels or mobile games, etc. It is designed to be hard to ignore.

This may be part of it. I refuse to use the app. I use the website only.

It sends me daily reminder emails, which I use as a reminder to do it if I have a chance, otherwise I ignore them. It flashes up a bunch of crap after I complete a lesson that I just mindlessly click through. Which could be the league stuff you mention but I ignore it.

> just like TikTok or Reels or mobile games

Fair, I have the same question about those. It boggles my mind that people fall for the gamification of those too. Or even back in the day stuff like badges in StackOverflow. If one doesn't care, one doesn't care.

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